The Evolving Landscape of Reading Assessment with Dr. Elena Forzani
Host Dr. Erin Bailey sits down with Dr. Elena Forzani, a literacy researcher at Boston University, to discuss how reading assessment is changing and what equity looks like in that space. Dr. Forzani traces her path from classroom teacher to assessment expert, driven by her frustration with test-focused instruction. She shares her involvement in shaping the 2026 NAEP reading framework and explains how this national, low-pressure assessment differs from the high-stakes tests students face at the state level. The conversation digs into culturally responsive assessment — specifically the importance of including diverse voices in the process from the very beginning — as well as the difficulties that come with accounting for the wide range of background knowledge students bring to the table. Dr. Forzani also weighs in on digital literacy in today's world of algorithms and AI, making the case that students need stronger critical thinking skills now more than ever. The episode wraps up with her thoughts on how reading fosters connection, opens doors to new perspectives, and brings people together through the simple act of sharing what they love to read.
About Dr. Elena Forzani:
Dr. Elena Forzani is director of the Literacy Education and Reading & Literacies Education programs and an assistant professor at Boston University Wheelock College of Education & Human Development. Dr. Forzani’s research centers on using multiple and mixed methods to understand and support digital literacies practices across the elementary and secondary levels. In particular, her work investigates the cognitive, metacognitive, and motivational dimensions of online reading, and especially how readers evaluate the credibility of online information. Through this work, Dr. Forzani seeks to inform the design of equity-oriented instruction and assessment environments.
Dr. Forzani was the assistant research director for PIRLS and ePIRLS, international print and digital reading assessments. She is a former first grade and high school English and reading teacher, as well as a former literacy specialist. Her scholarship has been published in multiple researcher and practitioner journals, including Reading Research Quarterly, Computers in Human Behavior, Computers & Education Open, The Reading Teacher, and The Journal of Adolescent & Adult Literacy. Dr. Forzani currently serves on the NAEP Standing Reading Committee.
LinkedIn: Elena Forzani | LinkedIn
Toward a Theory of Socioculturally Responsive Assessment (Bennett, 2023): Full article: Toward a Theory of Socioculturally Responsive Assessment
Book Recommendations from Dr. Forzani:
- Borders (Story by Thomas King; illustrations by Natasha Donovan): Borders: King, Thomas, Donovan, Natasha: 9780316593052: Amazon.com: Books
- All the Colors of the Dark by Chris Whitaker: Amazon.com: All the Colors of the Dark: A Read with Jenna Pick: 9780593798898: Whitaker, Chris: Books
- Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel: Wolf Hall (Wolf Hall Trilogy, 1): Mantel, Hilary: 9781250806710: Amazon.com: Books
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Erin Bailey: Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.00:00:03.016 --> 00:00:04.756
I'm your host, Dr. Aaron Bailey.00:00:04.786 --> 00:00:07.876
This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading.00:00:08.086 --> 00:00:14.301
In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question.00:00:15.016 --> 00:00:16.636
What does Reading inspire for you?00:00:16.966 --> 00:00:24.436
Through stories, research, and real world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes, we explore what literacy looks like and why it matters.00:00:24.706 --> 00:00:29.986
Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here.00:00:30.016 --> 00:00:32.296
Be sure to subscribe to get the latest episode.00:00:32.436 --> 00:00:33.576
Let's get inspired.00:00:33.846 --> 00:00:37.386
Today I am chatting with Dr. Elena Forni.00:00:37.636 --> 00:00:44.776
And fun story about how we met when I was teaching graduate students in the literacy program at George Washington.00:00:45.016 --> 00:00:51.436
I used one of Dr. Forani's articles to talk about digital literacies and one of my former graduat.00:00:51.446 --> 00:00:56.786
Students actually reached out to Elena because she enjoyed your article.00:00:56.946 --> 00:01:03.856
And then connected the two of us and we've had the opportunity to meet up at conferences and work together in other spaces.00:01:03.856 --> 00:01:14.686
So I'm sharing that so that those of you who are listening, if you ever read an article or something that you're interested in and you wanna engage in a conversation with the person who wrote it, you should reach out to them.00:01:14.686 --> 00:01:16.336
That's why their email's there.00:01:16.336 --> 00:01:17.986
I'm sure they'd be happy to hear from you.00:01:18.286 --> 00:01:20.566
So all that to say, welcome Dr. Ani.00:01:21.866 --> 00:01:22.096
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:01:22.096 --> 00:01:23.086
Thank you so much, Erin.00:01:23.086 --> 00:01:23.806
Appreciate it.00:01:23.836 --> 00:01:25.696
And I had actually forgotten about how we originally.00:01:26.146 --> 00:01:26.596
Connected.00:01:26.596 --> 00:01:28.246
I don't, yeah, it's been so long.00:01:28.276 --> 00:01:29.596
So I appreciate that story.00:01:29.906 --> 00:01:31.526
And it's great to be here, so thank you.00:01:32.516 --> 00:01:32.906
Erin Bailey: Thank you.00:01:33.156 --> 00:01:39.066
So you're currently a faculty member at Boston University's Wheelock College of Education and Human Development.00:01:39.226 --> 00:01:42.886
And your focus for research is on literacy assessment and equity.00:01:43.096 --> 00:01:45.856
Can you share a little bit about your professional journey?00:01:45.856 --> 00:01:51.106
What drew you to literacy research and assessment, and how have your experiences shaped your current work?00:01:52.491 --> 00:01:53.401
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, sure.00:01:53.401 --> 00:02:00.271
So actually I started out interested in child psychology and thought I would go into psychology.00:02:00.761 --> 00:02:03.586
And then I did in college, did an internship in.00:02:04.271 --> 00:02:09.101
In fifth grade actually teaching cognitive behavioral psychology to fifth graders.00:02:09.161 --> 00:02:20.031
And I just loved being in the classroom and having an opportunity to work with young children and then actually to really feel how it clicked with them when they got something.00:02:20.541 --> 00:02:23.961
And so that kind of inspired me to go into education.00:02:24.221 --> 00:02:29.261
I taught first grade and just found that I loved teaching reading.00:02:30.216 --> 00:02:35.646
I remember my literacy specialist said, you know, she's like, Wayne, you can't just teach reading all day.00:02:36.126 --> 00:02:42.096
And you know, I did obviously teach all the other things as well, but really loved teaching, reading, both like the phonics.00:02:42.096 --> 00:02:48.336
I felt like it was so magic that kids could learn this code and then they could actually be able to read words, which.00:02:48.601 --> 00:03:05.971
When they first came into my classroom at the beginning of first grade, they couldn't do, and of course, not only do they read words, but it just
opens the door for them to read all kinds of wonderful texts and have these wonderful experiences and experience different people and different worlds.00:03:06.496 --> 00:03:10.456
And I that, you know, that's reading has always been a huge part of my life.00:03:10.456 --> 00:03:12.376
So that was really exciting to me.00:03:12.796 --> 00:03:25.306
I got into assessment specifically because I, later, after I taught first grade, I taught high school English and was a high school reading specialist, and we, I worked at a charter school.00:03:26.261 --> 00:03:35.501
Where we assessed kids every six weeks, and we also definitely taught to the test for the what?00:03:35.501 --> 00:03:37.481
What at the time was the Connecticut Achievement Test.00:03:38.696 --> 00:03:49.406
You know, I got really good at figuring out what the formula was for scoring each of the, there were sort of like these four questions on the ELA test or the reading part of the test.00:03:50.036 --> 00:03:55.486
And I spent a lot of time figuring out, well, what's the formula for a good score?00:03:55.486 --> 00:03:57.316
And teaching kids that formula.00:03:58.066 --> 00:04:05.656
And I remember we got our scores back in the summer and my principal brought me into his office and he said look at these great scores.00:04:05.836 --> 00:04:07.156
Isn't this so wonderful?00:04:07.561 --> 00:04:10.731
And I truly felt like terrible about it.00:04:10.761 --> 00:04:24.051
It was a moment that it just made me realize I had spent all this time preparing students for this one test where there wasn't necessarily a whole lot of transfer for them.00:04:24.471 --> 00:04:29.901
And, you know, in addition to the state test, the charter network had its own.00:04:30.606 --> 00:04:35.826
Assessments that we did every six weeks that were not really tied to instruction.00:04:36.576 --> 00:04:39.366
So that got me really interested in assessment.00:04:39.526 --> 00:04:53.206
And kind of also like the structures of control that schools implement on students that don't feel so great and that, you know, aren't great for student agency and autonomy.00:04:54.001 --> 00:05:06.626
So it's, I guess a long way to say like how I got interested in sort of reading and assessment and then more broadly, like students' wellbeing and psychological wellness, which is sort of like where I started in a way.00:05:08.056 --> 00:05:19.576
Erin Bailey: It's so interesting and thank you for being so authentic there about your experience with assessments, because I'm sure there's a lot of educators listening right now that can.00:05:20.486 --> 00:05:21.986
Relate to that a lot.00:05:21.986 --> 00:05:29.516
I mean, when I was a reading specialist, I loved giving assessments and I probably gave them every six weeks.00:05:29.516 --> 00:05:37.521
And if you know me or if you've listened to this podcast a while, that probably sounds strange to you because I'm all about the joy of reading.00:05:37.521 --> 00:05:39.531
So assessment and joy don't go hand in hand.00:05:40.096 --> 00:05:43.846
They actually do when you use them appropriately.00:05:43.846 --> 00:06:00.556
Because when I was a reading specialist, I would use these assessments, some of which I designed myself, and some of which, you know, were provided
for me to like, it was like playing detective so I could figure out what skills a, what specific reading skills a student was struggling with.00:06:00.556 --> 00:06:09.071
So maybe it was a particular phonics pattern or maybe it was a. Component of phonological awareness, or maybe they were having a fluency issue.00:06:09.311 --> 00:06:19.631
And then once I had those clues, I could put together a personalized program for them and really tailor my lessons to meet their needs.00:06:19.631 --> 00:06:26.201
And I found joy in that because it felt successful for me and it also felt successful for the students.00:06:28.141 --> 00:06:28.451
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:06:28.451 --> 00:06:33.851
It's interesting you say that because I had a very similar experience when I taught first grade.00:06:33.851 --> 00:06:38.921
I also loved doing assessments, and I think it was for the same reason you just said, right.00:06:38.921 --> 00:06:40.841
You get to actually learn.00:06:41.291 --> 00:06:45.131
What's going on with a student, and it's very specific.00:06:45.221 --> 00:06:52.031
You know, depending on the assessment, it's specific information that you can actually then use in instruction to help them grow.00:06:52.571 --> 00:06:56.351
And that was really cool and exciting to me to understand.00:06:56.426 --> 00:07:04.196
You know why the sort of the why behind their performance if they were struggling or if they were doing really well.00:07:04.526 --> 00:07:11.396
You know, a kid reads a paragraph out loud or silently and you have no idea what's happening, right?00:07:11.396 --> 00:07:13.676
Unless you dig a little deeper.00:07:13.676 --> 00:07:20.006
And I think that's something kind of, as you just said, an assessment tool allows us to do is to dig a leader.00:07:20.036 --> 00:07:21.746
Little deeper into that, why.00:07:22.831 --> 00:07:23.341
Erin Bailey: Absolutely.00:07:23.341 --> 00:07:26.531
And I can see how your path has led you to where you are today.00:07:26.531 --> 00:07:33.831
So now you are deeply involved in the development of the 2026 NAP reading framework, and you serve on the na.00:07:34.096 --> 00:07:35.656
Standing reading committee.00:07:35.876 --> 00:07:42.476
So can you tell us a little bit about what that role entails and what are some of the priorities?00:07:42.526 --> 00:07:44.836
Guiding NAPS reading assessment right now.00:07:46.821 --> 00:07:47.631
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, sure.00:07:47.631 --> 00:07:51.411
So we developed the framework a few years ago now.00:07:51.441 --> 00:07:56.311
I can't remember when it was actually published, maybe during, maybe in 23.00:07:56.856 --> 00:08:13.316
So it's been a few years, but I do know it's now 2026, so it's gonna start to be implemented and it'll be really exciting to see that data
and to see how you know, I'm sure there'll be all kinds of conversations and complaints about the way the data is structured and the changes.00:08:13.871 --> 00:08:21.941
But the actual process of developing the new framework, I think was really exciting because it hadn't been developed since 2002.00:08:22.721 --> 00:08:29.741
And if you think about the time period between 2002 and like 2020 when we started developing it.00:08:30.416 --> 00:08:44.046
It's a big time period and certainly just thinking about the role of the internet, which is something else that I study, there's a huge change right in, in terms of digital reading and the, what the internet has done to.00:08:44.681 --> 00:08:45.761
Kids reading.00:08:46.301 --> 00:08:51.661
So I think that's something that we wanted to better account for sure.00:08:52.261 --> 00:09:10.111
And the reading experiences or activities, the tasks are situated within particular disciplinary areas or context, disciplinary context or, and they'll be reported that way, which will be a new change.00:09:10.571 --> 00:09:26.011
And that was really guided too by some of the practitioners in the room feeling like that would be valuable because teachers would be able to understand how students read in these particular contexts.00:09:26.311 --> 00:09:37.111
I think it also does a nice thing, which is helping us all remember that reading is not a fixed thing in, you know.00:09:38.236 --> 00:09:39.766
Across all contexts, right?00:09:39.766 --> 00:09:45.226
The way we read in a particular context may be really different than the way we read.00:09:45.526 --> 00:09:50.506
You know, in another context, whether it's a different topic or a different type of text.00:09:50.986 --> 00:09:58.866
Readers read differently across different contexts and disciplinary contexts are one context that I think are really relevant for school.00:09:58.926 --> 00:10:05.076
So I hope that those data will be valuable for teachers.00:10:06.216 --> 00:10:07.566
And I forget your second question.00:10:07.566 --> 00:10:10.086
Was it around what's important?00:10:10.206 --> 00:10:14.796
Erin Bailey: Yeah, I mean, what was, what were the priorities of the reading assessment right now?00:10:14.796 --> 00:10:20.856
Which I think you kind of highlighted, I mean, a big priority of course, being, it's been almost 20 years since the update, so.00:10:21.246 --> 00:10:24.396
Oh, that's seems like a lot has happened in the last 20 years.00:10:25.386 --> 00:10:26.016
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:10:26.016 --> 00:10:31.596
And you know, they're always concerned with trend and making sure we can maintain trend.00:10:31.656 --> 00:10:33.186
So I think they're doing.00:10:34.761 --> 00:10:38.881
Evaluations to make sure that the assessments will be comparable.00:10:38.881 --> 00:10:45.031
They always keep some of the prior tasks so that they can do that comparison.00:10:45.501 --> 00:10:48.321
But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how the data looks.00:10:48.371 --> 00:10:55.121
Although I don't really know what's going on with a right now, with, you know, everything happening federally.00:10:55.121 --> 00:10:59.141
I'm not sure what's, I know they're administering the assessment.00:10:59.581 --> 00:11:01.021
I don't know much.00:11:01.021 --> 00:11:02.851
I haven't heard much else about it.00:11:04.306 --> 00:11:06.706
Erin Bailey: And I think the other thing is comparing nap.00:11:07.606 --> 00:11:11.476
To the Connecticut assessment that you described earlier.00:11:11.476 --> 00:11:18.316
I know our listeners will be interested as I am in like what makes NAP considered a low stake assessment.00:11:18.316 --> 00:11:27.376
You know, we always hear about high stakes testing, so what makes NAP low stakes and authentic in comparison to some of the other assessments that you've seen?00:11:28.371 --> 00:11:29.781
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, that's a great question.00:11:29.781 --> 00:11:36.651
So it's low stakes in the sense that it doesn't have consequences for particular students.00:11:37.101 --> 00:11:39.411
And you know, it state standardized tests.00:11:39.981 --> 00:11:42.981
I think sometimes they can have consequences.00:11:43.041 --> 00:11:44.481
It depends on the state.00:11:45.001 --> 00:11:52.081
But NAP certainly, you know, it's not an individualized, like there are no, it doesn't report individual scores.00:11:52.081 --> 00:12:04.231
So it reports scores for the nation and for specific entities or groups that use it to understand how their group of readers are performing.00:12:04.231 --> 00:12:06.871
So that's the way in which it's low stakes.00:12:08.266 --> 00:12:08.716
Erin Bailey: That's great.00:12:08.716 --> 00:12:16.096
And the way I've heard it described is maybe like no one student takes the full nap assessment.00:12:16.096 --> 00:12:20.716
It's basically what, maybe like eight students that create like a composite student.00:12:20.746 --> 00:12:20.776
Okay.00:12:21.811 --> 00:12:22.741
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, that's right.00:12:22.741 --> 00:12:29.071
So they sample different pieces and I don't know the full sampling plan off the top of my head.00:12:29.331 --> 00:12:40.111
But the idea is that it lessens the burden of time on each individual student and sort of spreads that across the population because they're trying to understand.00:12:40.426 --> 00:12:42.706
Reading assessment on a national scale.00:12:43.106 --> 00:12:58.161
And so it's, you know, it's like a temperature check or a thermometer is one way it gets described that isn't this individual piece, but really helping us sort of understand in, with broad strokes how students are performing.00:12:58.371 --> 00:13:03.741
It does not really help us understand why students are performing the way that they are.00:13:04.276 --> 00:13:16.596
And you know, that was something that we advocated for, was sort of additional studies and variables that would help understand why and connect the performance data to other variables.00:13:17.116 --> 00:13:18.886
But those did not get funded.00:13:18.886 --> 00:13:21.256
They were not seen, I guess, as important.00:13:22.016 --> 00:13:25.016
And so I think there are limited.00:13:25.621 --> 00:13:34.501
There's certainly like really important things we can do with the data, but limited in the sense of not necessarily helping us understand the why behind the performance scores.00:13:35.821 --> 00:13:41.491
Erin Bailey: Yes, and certainly people will draw some causal conclusions through the data.00:13:41.521 --> 00:13:53.761
One that comes to mind is a lot of states are passing science of reading policies, so certainly you can try to match up how different states maybe improved compared to what policies they had in place.00:13:54.437 --> 00:13:55.037
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:13:55.287 --> 00:13:55.587
Sure.00:13:55.587 --> 00:13:59.847
So that, right, like nap data gets used for things like that all the time, I think.00:13:59.907 --> 00:14:03.447
And, you know, mostly it's correlational.00:14:03.567 --> 00:14:11.427
I think sometimes people are looking at the time at which a particular policy was implemented, but you don't really know.00:14:11.477 --> 00:14:21.587
There, there are questionnaires that go with APE and so you can correlate questionnaire data with performance data, which I think can tell us some things.00:14:22.482 --> 00:14:23.187
Erin Bailey: That's great.00:14:23.617 --> 00:14:26.887
So I also wanna think about equity in your work.00:14:26.887 --> 00:14:28.927
It's part, a big part of your scholarship.00:14:28.927 --> 00:14:31.927
How do you define equity in assessment and.00:14:31.987 --> 00:14:34.027
What does that look like in practice?00:14:35.021 --> 00:14:36.201
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, that's a big question.00:14:36.201 --> 00:14:40.061
And and there are so many ways I think to think about equity.00:14:40.331 --> 00:14:53.771
You know, I think one way we defined it recently in our justice based reading assessment framework was to think about it as students getting what they need within a system.00:14:53.771 --> 00:14:58.691
And that could mean that if you and I are students and we take an assessment.00:14:59.846 --> 00:15:17.901
The assessment shows we need different amounts of instruction or different types of instruction that we both get that different instruction or that differentiation, but I think that assumes that the system itself is what we're going for, right?00:15:17.901 --> 00:15:21.741
That assumes that it's equity within a given system.00:15:21.741 --> 00:15:31.611
And we also in that framework talk about justice, which is about more about like changing the system or questioning is that system equitable itself?00:15:32.331 --> 00:15:38.631
I think another way to think about equity and assessment is consequences.00:15:39.186 --> 00:15:53.376
So what are the ultimate consequences for students based on that assessment and are they good consequences that are actually gonna help students and that are gonna be fair across students?00:15:54.131 --> 00:16:17.891
I think historically, certainly the stories that have been told about certain populations of students with assessment have been quite negative, like persistently negative, and
sometimes the story ends up getting told in a way that, you know, it blames particular populations of learners or even students themselves, rather than helping us think about.00:16:18.581 --> 00:16:36.251
The contexts and how we can change and design learning contexts that will better support groups of students or how we might think about you
know, societal structures that you know, constrained learners in certain ways and that historically have constrained learners in certain ways.00:16:36.401 --> 00:16:42.431
And the ways in which, you know, assessments really are often developed by the same.00:16:42.866 --> 00:16:43.856
Kinds of people.00:16:43.856 --> 00:16:53.096
I think this is certainly getting better, but historically assessments have been developed and designed and implemented by dominant populations.00:16:53.096 --> 00:17:04.436
And so you know that popul a dominant population isn't really gonna be able to understand the needs of all other populations and implement assessment.00:17:04.646 --> 00:17:13.856
Design and develop and implement assessment in ways that are going to align with the needs or even the values of assessment.00:17:14.696 --> 00:17:19.856
You know, assessments are really like instantiations of our social values, right?00:17:19.856 --> 00:17:29.156
Somebody is deciding what we're gonna assess and what matters enough to assess it, and how we're gonna actually operationalize that in the assessment.00:17:29.156 --> 00:17:30.806
What's, how we're gonna actually measure it.00:17:31.526 --> 00:17:38.876
So, you know, different groups of people or different people might decide that they value different things.00:17:39.386 --> 00:17:55.436
So I think equity and assessment also means understanding what is it that different populations of people value in literacy assessment and in literacy practices, and how should we go about.00:17:56.726 --> 00:18:20.896
Designing and developing assessment that will align with that, and I think that really necessarily then means making sure all those different groups are at the table define, you know,
deciding what's measured and how it's gonna be measured, how it's gonna be implemented, and how we're gonna think about reporting results and ultimate consequences of that assessment.00:18:21.781 --> 00:18:23.521
So I think there are lots of ways to think about it.00:18:24.031 --> 00:18:27.871
One other thing I'll say is differentiation.00:18:28.561 --> 00:18:49.441
So especially now with a focus on the science of reading, I think we're seeing a lot of rhetoric around we're gonna implement the same instruction
or the same assessment for all learners, because that's gonna be equitable, to make sure that every single learner gets the same thing and.00:18:50.401 --> 00:18:57.601
It's sort of this move away from differentiation, which to me, you know, I just really don't understand this and I think it's really problematic.00:18:58.061 --> 00:19:04.331
I get the idea of wanting to make sure that students, that no student misses out on instruction.00:19:05.471 --> 00:19:30.321
And historically for assessment, right, we're assessment is like giving the same assessment to the same way to all learners and not differentiating or not adapting, but that can turn
into a validity issue where it's actually less valid for some learners and so it's less equitable and less valid and it's actually ends up going against good assessment principles.00:19:30.471 --> 00:19:37.221
So I think we do need to differentiate assessment to make it more equitable for different learners.00:19:38.406 --> 00:19:50.526
Erin Bailey: Yeah, that's, I mean, what you're describing, I think all educators are grappling with right now because it seems like there's been a movement towards whole class, a lot of things.00:19:50.526 --> 00:19:53.826
So whole class instruction, whole class assessment, this kind of.00:19:55.021 --> 00:19:59.851
Equity means everyone gets the same thing, one size fits all kind of thing.00:19:59.851 --> 00:20:01.261
And that's different than equity, right?00:20:01.261 --> 00:20:02.701
That's like equal.00:20:02.861 --> 00:20:07.211
And those two don't always go to, those don't always go hand in hand.00:20:07.291 --> 00:20:09.326
But one thing we talk about a lot, and I know you've.00:20:09.721 --> 00:20:17.581
Written about is culturally responsive or culturally relevant teaching, but you have this idea of culturally responsive assessment.00:20:17.581 --> 00:20:19.741
Can you describe that a little bit?00:20:19.741 --> 00:20:25.626
What are the core principles and what challenges might arise if people try to implement this at scale?00:20:27.621 --> 00:20:31.371
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, and I'll just say culturally responsive assessment is not our concept.00:20:31.401 --> 00:20:37.581
You know, folks like Montenegro and Carol Lee took up culturally responsive assessment years ago.00:20:38.091 --> 00:20:43.971
I think most recently, Bennett has a really nice paper on culturally responsive assessment.00:20:44.221 --> 00:20:48.091
But I think, you know, there are different, there are a few ideas there.00:20:48.601 --> 00:21:00.831
One is, I mean, for me it means one thing I just mentioned, which is partnering with the populations of people that an assessment is trying to serve.00:21:00.831 --> 00:21:01.041
Right?00:21:01.041 --> 00:21:03.351
If you're creating an assessment or implementing it.00:21:03.851 --> 00:21:09.761
And the people that it's supposed to help or serve isn't, aren't at the table.00:21:10.031 --> 00:21:11.951
I think you really can't do a good job of that.00:21:11.951 --> 00:21:21.641
You have no idea what their goals are, what they want, what kinds of literacy practices are meaningful to them, or how they make meaning in different ways.00:21:21.821 --> 00:21:29.081
And so I think having those rights holders at the table is absolutely essential and a first step before you're doing anything else.00:21:29.601 --> 00:21:31.731
And I think it needs to be more than just.00:21:32.316 --> 00:21:39.876
You know, having focus groups or asking a couple of people to look at the assessment after the fact, right?00:21:39.876 --> 00:21:51.456
So sometimes we have these bias panels or fairness panels that happen after an assessment gets developed and they're supposed to sort of, just make small tweaks.00:21:51.951 --> 00:22:00.096
I think we really need to think about being culturally responsive and equitable from the very outset of the assessment, which.00:22:00.711 --> 00:22:04.341
Means sitting with people that the assessment is gonna serve.00:22:05.201 --> 00:22:15.191
I also think it means really valuing different identities, knowledges, cultures, experiences, forms of expression that.00:22:16.256 --> 00:22:20.336
At least that are going to represent the people being served by the assessment.00:22:20.666 --> 00:22:38.186
And if that's, if you're developing an assessment for the national population, that means finding ways, you know, to reflect the identities and
knowledges and experiences and languages of people in the national population, depending on, you know, what you're trying to assess as well.00:22:39.026 --> 00:22:47.276
There's been a lot of good work in trying to adapt assessments to try to account for some of those influences.00:22:47.796 --> 00:22:54.426
And you know, we've long known, of course that background knowledge plays a huge role in reading comprehension.00:22:54.426 --> 00:23:02.506
And so if you and I have different knowledge and we read the same passage, on baseball, let's say.00:23:02.506 --> 00:23:03.046
And you know a00:23:03.046 --> 00:23:04.246
ton about baseball.00:23:04.576 --> 00:23:05.506
I know nothing.00:23:05.716 --> 00:23:07.276
I know nothing about baseball.00:23:07.306 --> 00:23:08.956
So I use this example a lot.00:23:09.376 --> 00:23:12.946
You know, then it's gonna be a really hard passage for me to read.00:23:12.946 --> 00:23:14.446
I'll probably perform poorly on it.00:23:14.506 --> 00:23:16.336
If you know a lot, you'll perform better.00:23:16.486 --> 00:23:20.426
It's a very simplistic example, but we want to sort of.00:23:21.031 --> 00:23:39.391
Vary the kinds of knowledges and even better understand the reader's knowledge who are taking an assessment so we can understand the
relationship in any given assessment between knowledges, motivations, identities, language, and their performance on the assessment.00:23:40.501 --> 00:23:46.351
I think too, like I mentioned, adapting assessments, I think that's a huge thing that.00:23:46.771 --> 00:23:52.861
We do need to differentiate and adapt assessments to account for the needs of different kinds of learners.00:23:52.961 --> 00:24:08.141
You know, just in, I just mentioned this survey we're giving and one of the things that's looking at teachers' practices and perspectives for reading assessment, and one of the themes that's come up over and over is that.00:24:09.041 --> 00:24:22.181
Basically that we need to differentiate assessment, both in terms of populations of learners, like assessments not being appropriate for English learners or for students behind grade level.00:24:22.361 --> 00:24:25.871
And then also this idea that some students.00:24:26.291 --> 00:24:36.431
That may be behind grade level, that are struggling with reading, might need more frequent and or different kinds of assessments compared to students who are on grade level.00:24:36.671 --> 00:24:36.911
Right.00:24:36.911 --> 00:24:43.301
And it's such a, it's almost like a back to basics concept that we used to do when we differentiated.00:24:43.301 --> 00:24:46.901
And now, like you said, it's become a one size fits all.00:24:47.351 --> 00:24:52.361
Issue where we're just giving the same assessments to all learners and saying, that's good.00:24:52.361 --> 00:24:57.671
And I think what we're finding in this survey is teachers are saying like, no that's actually not working.00:24:57.671 --> 00:24:59.711
It's not serving students.00:24:59.711 --> 00:25:01.691
It's not helping me inform my instruction.00:25:01.691 --> 00:25:02.291
Instruction.00:25:02.291 --> 00:25:03.911
And it's a waste of time.00:25:04.481 --> 00:25:10.721
So hopefully we will eventually see more of that instructional or that assessment adaptation.00:25:11.621 --> 00:25:22.651
Erin Bailey: It's, it seems like such a big task though, because like your baseball example is perfect and I think there was even a study sometime around the eighties that did such a test where.00:25:22.901 --> 00:25:32.531
Readers were given a BA passage about baseball, and depending on their background knowledge of baseball, they were able to do the learning task you know, to a certain degree, better or worse.00:25:32.531 --> 00:25:38.821
But it really had to do more with their background knowledge of baseball than the reading passage that they were given.00:25:39.061 --> 00:25:41.581
So, I mean, to think about this at a national.00:25:41.751 --> 00:25:52.221
Scale seems like such a daunting task because is there anything that we truly all share of background knowledge in or how, I mean, what can we do?00:25:53.566 --> 00:25:58.421
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, and I think, you know, that's a common issue that comes up I think for good reason and.00:25:58.631 --> 00:26:26.141
I mean, I think one thing we can do that folks are doing is like sampling different kinds of knowledge or at least understanding, you know, including short questionnaires that assess knowledge so that you can
then at least understand a student's, the relationship between a student's background content knowledge, and their performance on the passage, so that you sort of know that why piece, if they didn't perform well.00:26:26.866 --> 00:26:33.076
You know, you can say, oh, that's because one possible reason is that they had this low knowledge.00:26:33.176 --> 00:26:34.586
So that we can kind of understand that.00:26:34.646 --> 00:26:41.066
But yeah, it's a huge issue, especially when we're thinking about assessing on a national scale.00:26:41.216 --> 00:26:43.046
But I think it's something we have to do, right?00:26:43.046 --> 00:26:51.956
Because for so many years, assessment was just developed with the assumption that every learner was exactly the same.00:26:52.526 --> 00:27:02.156
And you know, that's just really not the case across the, you know, diverse human population, particularly the population that we have in the United States.00:27:02.756 --> 00:27:16.766
You know, scoring systems are, another way I think to address variation in learners is scoring systems that account for different differences, for example, that sort of allow teachers to.00:27:18.298 --> 00:27:33.958
What are the resources learners bring to instruction or to assessment, and why might they have performed a particular way rather
than just, you know, if you have a one size fits all assessment, you're looking at assessment results and you're just assuming that.00:27:35.143 --> 00:27:53.878
For example, you might just assume that the student didn't, you know, doesn't it you might assume that the student has an issue with sounds and
with understanding their sounds or with phonological awareness, and maybe in fact they're really good with their sounds in their home language, but.00:27:54.253 --> 00:28:06.973
Haven't yet learned sounds in English, and that's really important information for a teacher to know and has, you know, potentially different avenues for instruction.00:28:07.483 --> 00:28:14.923
So I think people are working on different ways to address the fact that we do have this diverse population.00:28:15.403 --> 00:28:22.183
But yeah, it is certainly such a huge issue and I think we're just beginning to think about it.00:28:22.958 --> 00:28:24.968
Erin Bailey: But thinking about it is a start.00:28:24.968 --> 00:28:37.738
And I like your idea too, of bringing everyone, bringing a diverse representation of people to the table at the onset, designing the assessment versus, just having, you know, a panel at the end that might react to an assessment.00:28:37.738 --> 00:28:42.598
I think, you know, those kind of like small steps can get us there over time.00:28:43.543 --> 00:28:43.663
I.00:28:44.318 --> 00:28:50.728
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, I think that's again, an essential first piece that at least can guide the assessment.00:28:50.728 --> 00:28:51.478
And then I think.00:28:51.643 --> 00:28:54.403
It depends on the specific assessment, right?00:28:54.403 --> 00:29:01.293
And what you're trying to accomplish and what you're trying to measure in that assessment and who are the populations like for an assessment.00:29:01.653 --> 00:29:08.343
Maybe it is a homogenous population for a particular assessment, and then you can build that assessment for that population.00:29:08.763 --> 00:29:14.043
But I think on a national level, we do have really diverse populations that we need to think about.00:29:14.398 --> 00:29:14.788
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:29:15.548 --> 00:29:21.338
And thinking back to the beginning when I introduced your research on digital literacies and online.00:29:21.733 --> 00:29:22.273
Reading.00:29:22.373 --> 00:29:29.033
A lot of your research explores how students read and how they evaluate information in digital spaces.00:29:29.303 --> 00:29:36.923
How should assessments evolve to be able to capture students' abilities to n navigate, evaluate, and synthesize information online?00:29:38.788 --> 00:29:42.628
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, I mean, they should evolve to capture these things, right?00:29:42.628 --> 00:29:54.628
It's such an important skill and I think has only become more and more important with ai, with algorithms, with platform driven social media platforms.00:29:54.678 --> 00:30:00.408
These things really affect, actually, we were just talking about this in class last night.00:30:00.498 --> 00:30:03.828
They affect the information that we see, right?00:30:03.828 --> 00:30:15.198
Even like algorithms affect the information that we have access to, unless we're savvy enough to real, to like remember, oh yeah, there's an algorithm driving this information funnel.00:30:15.198 --> 00:30:20.658
And in order to see additional perspectives, I have to somehow get outside of that.00:30:20.658 --> 00:30:21.343
I mean, that's a really.00:30:22.558 --> 00:30:35.548
Tricky thing I think for students to learn about and for any of us to remember when we're reading online to remember how information is really controlled and funneled to us.00:30:36.028 --> 00:30:37.678
And it's not just algorithms, right?00:30:37.678 --> 00:30:48.148
It's also companies and organizations that have a lot of power and a lot of resources that have significant interests in.00:30:49.903 --> 00:30:53.233
Funneling particular information in particular ways to us.00:30:53.233 --> 00:30:56.323
So it's sort of like information is never neutral.00:30:56.923 --> 00:31:00.943
And we do have some good assessments of reading online.00:31:01.003 --> 00:31:07.363
So like PISA has an online reading assessment, pearls, which is a fourth grade reading assessment.00:31:07.363 --> 00:31:10.963
They also have an on an assessment of students' online reading.00:31:11.563 --> 00:31:13.993
I don't think really either of those.00:31:14.698 --> 00:31:29.468
Are thinking about sort of this contextual piece of how information gets controlled and funneled, which is more like moving towards a media literacy perspective.00:31:29.468 --> 00:31:32.828
And there are assessments on media literacy out there.00:31:33.548 --> 00:31:37.898
And I think too, like it's not just about assessing students' strategies.00:31:39.143 --> 00:31:45.173
But about assessing mindsets and how students approach information.00:31:45.863 --> 00:31:50.483
Again, that piece I just mentioned that my students were talking about in class last night of.00:31:51.413 --> 00:32:03.203
Realizing, oh yeah, there's an algorithm driving this, and how do I evaluate information within the context of that algorithm or of that funnel.00:32:03.473 --> 00:32:08.713
So I think some of those pieces we're really not assessing yet on a national level.00:32:08.923 --> 00:32:19.523
And yeah, I mean, I think that can have really big consequences for what we understand at a national level about what students.00:32:19.958 --> 00:32:25.838
Know and how they're operating when they're reading multiple different texts online.00:32:26.828 --> 00:32:37.898
Going back to nap, though I will say they're, some of their tasks do involve reading multiple digital texts online as well.00:32:38.408 --> 00:32:44.158
And they've got some really cool tasks that are really engaging and they've got avatars and that really sort of.00:32:44.868 --> 00:32:58.878
I think do a nice job of authentically representing what reading looks like online sometimes where students are reading multiple texts and thinking about multiple perspectives and synthesizing information across multiple texts.00:32:59.838 --> 00:33:08.208
But I think that evaluation piece is really key and that's something we need to think about measuring so that we focus on it more.00:33:08.418 --> 00:33:11.148
And the thing I'll say about that is I think there's a lot of.00:33:12.498 --> 00:33:19.693
Fear and reluctance to, to focus on that or to measure be particularly in our current.00:33:20.833 --> 00:33:31.843
Political context because it really does get into issues of who has control and who has power and what groups are being marginalized by information.00:33:31.873 --> 00:33:36.883
And you know, that's been, in some states you can't really talk about that anymore.00:33:36.883 --> 00:33:41.103
So I think that you know, are we gonna assess that?00:33:41.433 --> 00:33:46.263
There's a lot of fear around that and there's a lot of sort of pulling back.00:33:46.593 --> 00:33:48.393
But I do think that's something that.00:33:49.278 --> 00:34:06.408
We need to assess and even more so as kids are using ai, needing to understand how students are thinking about information and how
they're really evaluating the credibility of that information and the ways in which that information is politically and socially situated.00:34:07.458 --> 00:34:08.838
Erin Bailey: Yeah that's so interesting.00:34:08.838 --> 00:34:22.398
I mean, I had a coworker the other day who asked, you know, should a question be whether students can identify if something is AI or human generated?00:34:22.608 --> 00:34:25.908
And I don't even know if we're asking the right questions.00:34:25.938 --> 00:34:29.358
I mean, is that a question that we should even be asking?00:34:30.223 --> 00:34:33.643
Does it matter, I guess, whether a human wrote it or an AI wrote it?00:34:33.643 --> 00:34:36.723
Is it more about the factual information?00:34:36.723 --> 00:34:36.753
I.00:34:38.303 --> 00:34:42.863
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah, I think that's a great question about like what questions are we asking, right?00:34:42.863 --> 00:34:43.553
What's important?00:34:43.553 --> 00:34:47.483
And I think there is that temptation to just focus on, right?00:34:47.483 --> 00:34:51.113
Is it AI or is it not AI or is it credible or is it not credible?00:34:51.113 --> 00:34:53.513
And it's like, well, it's really not that simple.00:34:53.513 --> 00:34:55.373
Information is not that simple.00:34:55.453 --> 00:34:55.843
And.00:34:57.553 --> 00:35:05.173
I, and I think a lot of organizations are allowing AI writing right now, even if schools are not allowing it.00:35:05.443 --> 00:35:16.153
And maybe there is, you know, important work that needs to be done on school's part to really consider how do we deal with ai?00:35:16.153 --> 00:35:16.753
Because I think.00:35:17.503 --> 00:35:24.373
The majority of K 12 schools right now, especially at elementary, middle school level, are just telling students they can't use it.00:35:24.673 --> 00:35:27.943
But of course, students are going home and they are using it.00:35:27.973 --> 00:35:30.523
And so how are schools sort of addressing that?00:35:30.953 --> 00:35:33.623
And I think it's, yeah, it's a really complex issue.00:35:35.063 --> 00:35:46.893
Erin Bailey: It's such a good point because as you mentioned, a lot of organizations and workplaces are allowing AI in writing, but then as you mentioned, schools are more hesitant to adopt that.00:35:46.893 --> 00:35:48.813
So are we really preparing.00:35:49.353 --> 00:36:01.083
Our learners for their lives outside of school if we're not equipping them with the right tools and the right processes to, to learn how to navigate AI in school.00:36:02.408 --> 00:36:02.858
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:36:02.858 --> 00:36:03.908
And I think it's tricky.00:36:03.938 --> 00:36:12.078
Like, we want students to learn how to do something right, and if they never write on their own, they'll never, they won't be able to learn how.00:36:12.438 --> 00:36:17.678
But then I guess, right on the other hand, maybe they won't need to know, you know, who knows what the next 20 year.00:36:17.678 --> 00:36:26.728
I hate to say that I, everybody should learn how to write because I think it's a tool for helping us think, but, you know, what is the next 20 years gonna look like with ai?00:36:26.728 --> 00:36:27.238
I don't know.00:36:27.238 --> 00:36:29.218
I think that's can be a scary question.00:36:29.958 --> 00:36:32.938
Erin Bailey: Yeah, certainly something worth exploring though.00:36:32.998 --> 00:36:39.908
And thinking about that looking ahead, what areas of literacy, research and assessment excite you?00:36:39.908 --> 00:36:45.578
What do you believe will be the most influential on the future of educational and measurement?00:36:46.642 --> 00:36:54.532
Dr. Elena Forzani: Definitely ai since we're talking about it in terms of just speeding up analysis of results for sure.00:36:55.757 --> 00:36:58.517
But probably in assessment development as well.00:36:58.517 --> 00:37:05.207
I mean, I think in everything, right, AI is being used to do lots of different tasks.00:37:05.537 --> 00:37:10.727
So I think certainly AI and measurement is something we're gonna see more and more of.00:37:11.747 --> 00:37:17.417
I do also think we are gonna see more of a turn towards.00:37:18.362 --> 00:37:21.512
Adaptation of assessment rather than one size fits all.00:37:21.782 --> 00:37:44.042
I think people are starting to realize that that's not necessarily useful to use a one size fits all approach with assessment, and that we can
differentiate in structured ways that are principled and that actually increase validity rather than, you know, take validity away, which is the fear.00:37:44.462 --> 00:38:02.402
So I think I, I do think there will be a turn towards that and towards differentiating and sort of adapting assessment, both at the classroom
level and actually already, I think we're seeing more of that at the large scale assessment level where there's a lot of adaptation work going on.00:38:02.702 --> 00:38:07.112
Whereas at the classroom level, I think people are still afraid to adapt.00:38:08.327 --> 00:38:09.167
Erin Bailey: Well, that's interesting.00:38:09.197 --> 00:38:10.577
That's interesting to hear.00:38:10.607 --> 00:38:11.417
Thank you for that.00:38:11.877 --> 00:38:16.462
And finally, I always end by asking guests, what does reading inspire for you?00:38:17.691 --> 00:38:17.961
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:38:17.991 --> 00:38:18.321
Okay.00:38:18.321 --> 00:38:19.701
That's a broad question.00:38:19.701 --> 00:38:20.301
I like it.00:38:20.881 --> 00:38:22.441
I think I would say two things.00:38:22.441 --> 00:38:36.211
One is like the ability to, maybe I mentioned this at the beginning, but I love that books can take us to a different world that we can't, you know, necessarily I. See or feel or experience otherwise.00:38:36.321 --> 00:38:46.761
And I think like history, I ne I feel like I never really understand historical things until I read a novel about them and then I'm like, oh, okay, now I really get it.00:38:47.391 --> 00:38:50.721
But just that ability to take you to historical places.00:38:50.941 --> 00:38:59.911
Like I'm reading Wolf Hall right now by Hillary Mantle or Mantle which is about, you know, 15, 16 hundreds England.00:38:59.941 --> 00:39:02.461
And obviously we can never go back in time.00:39:02.461 --> 00:39:03.871
So that's an example.00:39:04.361 --> 00:39:09.041
And then I think just the ability to like connect and communicate with other people, right?00:39:09.866 --> 00:39:13.466
Authors write these texts and we get to experience them.00:39:13.466 --> 00:39:30.076
And there's just so much there can, there's so much excitement in that when we get lost in a book whether it's something that's taking us to a different
world or something that we identify with and it's this social thing, right, where it's not just the communication between the author and the reader.00:39:30.466 --> 00:39:33.796
But like we, we read together sometimes, right?00:39:33.796 --> 00:39:38.386
We make book recommendations that sometimes take us out of our comfort zones.00:39:38.386 --> 00:39:46.426
So I have this book actually, that I started, I don't usually read graphic novels 'cause it's not my it's not what I love.00:39:46.426 --> 00:39:47.416
It's not what I grew up with.00:39:47.496 --> 00:39:55.936
But a student just recommended this and it's about a Canadian family and crossing borders and it's a graphic novel, so it's also.00:39:56.266 --> 00:39:59.866
Forcing me to come outta my comfort zone a little bit and read a graphic novel.00:40:00.166 --> 00:40:03.466
And then to be able to talk about that book too with other people.00:40:03.466 --> 00:40:06.896
So I think, that's, it's just really exciting.00:40:06.926 --> 00:40:10.351
And just I guess I said like the love of just getting lost in a book.00:40:10.351 --> 00:40:18.181
I think that's so powerful and those of us who love to read know that feeling of just not being able to put a book down.00:40:18.181 --> 00:40:24.846
I was recently on an airplane reading all the colors of the dark, which had actually been recommended to me by two different colleagues.00:40:25.696 --> 00:40:33.226
And I was supposed to be working on something, but I started reading it at takeoff when I couldn't have my laptop open and I just couldn't put it down.00:40:33.596 --> 00:40:44.276
So there's just that, like, that feeling of getting lost in a book in that way of like, I kept meaning to put it down, but my brain just kept ignoring that piece.00:40:44.646 --> 00:40:49.506
And I think that's a great experience for kids to get to experience and adults as well.00:40:50.866 --> 00:40:58.941
Erin Bailey: I love graphic novels, so I am definitely going to check that one out and then you and I can connect over it the next time we see each other in person.00:40:59.161 --> 00:41:00.601
I will also link the.00:41:00.871 --> 00:41:01.201
Hello.00:41:01.201 --> 00:41:04.501
For everyone who's interested, I feel like now we've started Elena's book Club.00:41:04.711 --> 00:41:10.601
Of the three the three books that you mentioned, I'll be sure to link below so everyone can check them out.00:41:10.601 --> 00:41:13.641
And thank you so much for being here, Elena.00:41:14.646 --> 00:41:15.036
Dr. Elena Forzani: Yeah.00:41:15.036 --> 00:41:16.026
Thank you so much Erin.00:41:16.026 --> 00:41:19.286
And I'll just share one more thing because you're reminding me too.00:41:19.286 --> 00:41:27.731
This book was a recommendation because I asked students to bring in a text on the first night of class that's been meaningful to them in some way.00:41:28.796 --> 00:41:31.316
And as a way of like introducing themselves.00:41:31.316 --> 00:41:39.776
And it's just a great way too to get, like, to learn about students as people and what matters to them and to get book recommendations across the class.00:41:39.806 --> 00:41:42.026
So it's just another way of thinking about that.00:41:42.356 --> 00:41:45.206
Books sort of inspire connection and community.00:41:45.866 --> 00:41:47.306
Erin Bailey: That's a great interactivity.00:41:47.306 --> 00:41:51.446
So for those of you who are teachers listening right now, you should use that.00:41:51.446 --> 00:41:55.106
Bring a book bring a book as a get to know you, a activity.00:41:55.106 --> 00:41:56.281
That's a great way to connect and get.00:41:56.651 --> 00:41:58.601
Great reading recommendations too.00:41:59.021 --> 00:42:04.181
Well, thank you so much and thank you all for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.00:42:04.181 --> 00:42:09.191
I hope today's conversation sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading.00:42:09.491 --> 00:42:17.921
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with a fellow literacy champion, and join us next time as we continue to explore what reading inspires.
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