Kate DiCamillo and Kelly Yang on the Stories That Help Children Find Their Voice

Speaker 16: Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental. I'm your host, Dr. Erin Bailey. This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading. In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question: What does reading inspire for you?

Through stories, research, and real-world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes, we explore what literacy looks like and why it matters. Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here. Be sure to subscribe to get the latest episode.

Let's get inspired.

Speaker 12: Thank you

Speaker 11: so much ... hello. It's so good to be here.

Speaker 13: Yeah, so good to be here.

Speaker 11: Oh, okay. Kelly, you go first. I'll follow.

Speaker 13: Okay. I... Well, first of all, I was a lonely kid growing up. Part of the loneliness has to do with the fact that I moved around a lot. my parents, you know, were constantly, We didn't really have a house of our own, so we had to... We managed these motels, which is, you know, one was in Anaheim, one was in Newport Beach.

So we were constantly running around, and when I would go to a new school, I'd be the new kid, and it would be, you know, heartbreaking to le- to leave all my friends and have to be the new kid. And I sort of c- convinced myself that if the library in the school had my favorite books- Mm ... that I would somehow not feel so alone, because all the, all the favorite books were there, and they were kind of my friends, and they were the one constant in my life.

so that's kinda how I got started being a reader, you know, with the help of the library and the librarians that I had. And then when I became a storyteller was really just sort of accidental. I started working on some sto- short stories in class, and then I would read them to my classmates sometimes.

And I realized, huh, like, I could make people laugh. Okay, this is interesting. And it just was, like, such a, it felt like such a superpower.

Speaker 11: I, I love that whole notion of you're moving around, but your friends are waiting in the library. It's just like a- a- as you were talking, I was thinking, I, I'd never heard you say that before.

So it's like, let's get that on the podcast. so, um- I can still

Speaker 13: surprise you, Kate.

Speaker 11: s- for me, I grew up in a small town, in central Florida, and I was super lucky in that I had a, a mother who, believed in books. she read to me, she bought me books, and she took, the whole neighborhood to the public library often.

That was the Cooper Memorial Public Library in, in Clermont. And, I loved that place, and I did not think of becoming a writer until I was college-aged. things were so different, I didn't... You know, I don't know, Kelly, did a, did you ever have a, an author visit you in school when you were growing up?

Speaker 13: Never. Yeah. We never had an author visit, yeah.

Speaker 11: I just didn't think it was something that human beings did.

Speaker 13: I know. And

Speaker 11: so,

Speaker 13: yeah. I, I did- I wish we did. We had, like, D.A.R.E., like, don't do drugs.

Speaker 11: Oh, I, I remember. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But n- and, and so it was just, it wasn't until, really until college that I latched onto the idea of wanting, wanting to do it.

Speaker 13: Interesting. So even growing up, you never thought of for a second, like, me-

Speaker 11: Never ... Kate, no,

Speaker 13: Kate, I could possi- really?

Speaker 11: No, no. Wow. And like, and when I do my little PowerPoint, I, I, I z- zero in on me in my second grade classroom and, and say... I mean, I look like a chipmunk. I still look like a chipmunk. And, and I say, you know, "That kid had no idea."

I, you know, I just thought books were too magical to have human beings behind them. And, and so now I get to say to kids, "If you're a human being, that's perfect. That's what we need. That's who writes the books." You know? Aw. We are the storytelling kind. Okay, Erin, sorry. See, here we go. We're just gonna, take away for our own podcast, yeah.

I, I, uh, K- Kelly, I'll take this one, okay, and then you can interject. or you can talk and then I'll interrupt you. So

Speaker 13: if you- No, no, go ahead. Go ahead ...

Speaker 11: so we were at, a Texas Li- Library Association, and we were, we both spoke, and- Mm-hmm. But we'd

Speaker 13: been friends before then ...

Speaker 11: yeah, and we'd, we had sp- we had talked on the phone- Yeah

before then, but we, and this is where we met in person. Yeah. And, and w- and really when you say, "When did the podcast happen?" It's when we were on a panel together and somebody asked a question about outlining.

Speaker 14: Yeah.

Speaker 11: Do you outline? And k- and Kelly was to the left of me, and, and you know, you're facing the audience, and I said, "No, I, I, I can't write if I outline."

And her head just whipped around and utter just, it's like, "What are you talking about? How can you do it then?" I was shocked. Yeah. Yeah, and so, and it was just like, it was a wonderful moment where... And, and it was so great for everybody in the audience to see it, because it, it's you know, it's like I always say, there's no right or wrong way to do it, it's just if you feel like you're supposed to be doing it and you're not doing it.

Speaker 13: So I whip my head because I spend so much time, you know, beating myself up over the outline, over the plan, going over the plan. Is this the right plan? Going over chapter by chapter. I really like to have it all mapped out. And then there is this masterful woman next to me who doesn't even need that, and I'm like, "What?"

Speaker 11: I, it, it's not masterful, it's, um- I'm, I'm, I... You know, you know now how I'm proceeding. I'm a little dung beetle pushing, you know, that's how I go. So there's nothing masterful about it, it's just showing up relentlessly- Yeah ...

Speaker 13: and being open. That's what we have in common.

Speaker 11: Yeah. That, that's it. Yeah. I think that's what,

Speaker 13: that is, that is the one thing that I get the most every time I talk to Kate, is it's not easy for any of us.

And you know what? Every book is different. I was trying to explain this to a friend, like, every book feels so different, so you don't really know how to... Y- it's not like you really know how to do this every time. You know? You have to kinda start all over with each new book, because the characters are all different, situations are all different.

Speaker 11: Right. And, and that is the beautiful thing about, us talking.

Speaker 13: Yeah.

Speaker 11: And it, it is like, it leaves everybody else who's doing it less alone. And it, and this is so much about, and that's whether they're a kid or an adult. it's just like, oh, okay. You don't know what you're doing either. Yeah. You know?

We're all just, we're all just trying together, so. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, Erin. Yeah. There you go.

We love that person. I, I mean- I love it ... and, and I don't, uh, uh, it's like, Kelly, I don't know if you've heard me tell this before, but you'll just have to look interested. It was just like- ... I remember being in, it was in Connecticut. I know where I was. I was in a big, you know, auditorium, a gymnasium actually, and, a kid asked that question about outlining, and, and I said, "I, I don't, I can't."

And, and the kid said, "What if your teacher says you have to?" Mm-hmm. A- and I said, "Is, is, is your teacher

Speaker 15: here?"

Speaker 11: And of course she was, and so I had to turn to her and say, "If I was the kid in your class, and that's the way you asked me to write a story, I could not do it." Um- Wow ... I just, I can't. Yeah. Mm. And so it, it, yeah.

No, no, no, but also, Erin, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 14: Uh-huh. That's amazing. That's amazing

Speaker 11: Right. Right. Right. Same with reading, for that matter. Yes. You know? I love that. It's just like the book that- Not one size fits all ... that one kid loves is not that, you know, it is- Yes ... it, it is a journey that you are on, alone together, you know? and it, so it's just like to force somebody to love a book that you love is just pointless, you know?

Mm-hmm. It's like, yeah. Okay. Erin, we're way off script now, right? Yeah.

Speaker 13: Yeah. No, I mean, I think stories allow you to step into someone else's world, into their shoes, and I mean, you have very, you're very limited in how you can do that otherwise, right? You can only kinda try to ask somebody. But stories allow us to really feel it, 'cause we're in their internal thoughts, and that allows us to, like, gain a whole new perspective, and that's what gives us that empathy.

and I think- Right. It- I really don't know of any other way to get that empathy like that, do you?

Speaker 11: No, no. And, and I mean, and, and happily, it's scientifically proven.

Speaker 14: Proven, yes.

Speaker 11: Yeah, you know? Like, when you read the sentence, "Kelly picked up the pencil," the neurons in your brain fire as if you're picking up a pencil.

It's a really powerful thing. You're, you're just sitting there reading, but your brain is picking up the pencil. It, it's just like it is. And I, there was a great, review of, a book in The New Yorker by, Kathryn Schulz, and I've actually got this, hey, in my notebook, about what fi- fiction can do.

So-

Speaker 14: Great.

Speaker 11: Let's hear it ... uh, "With due, w- with due respect to the innovations of science, fiction remains the most powerful microscope, telescope, seismograph, x-ray machine, and particle accelerator we've ever discovered, a way to examine the world at every scale, to reverse causality, to alter time, to identify fundamental properties, to reveal our inner workings and control the conditions of the universe."

and it's like, I read that and I think, "Man, it makes me wanna write something." Yeah, so.

Speaker 13: I mean, that's incredible. It is true. Like, I mean, that, that, what we need more than anything else as humans is to understand other humans.

Speaker 11: Right. You know? That's it. That's it.

Speaker 13: Yeah.

Speaker 11: Now more than ever.

Speaker 13: Um- Now more than ever, I was gonna say.

Yeah. You know, and, and, like, yes, we can get some of it to some extent through, I guess, watching, you know, TV and movies and stuff, but not to the same extent, because we can't get that interiority.

Speaker 11: Right, and also it's passive. Yeah. Reading is active, and so it does something different to your brain. Yeah.

Okay, Erin. That...

Speaker 12: Perfect. Hello

Speaker 13: Absolutely. So we actually, I have it right here, we actually started on this back in 2021, which was, I think 2021. It was a very, took a very long time, just that's just the nature of, like, anything illustrated just takes forever. but you know, I just, I always thought that we need to get this story into as many hands as possible and let kids read it in as many different formats, you know, languages, whatever, as possible because I've seen what happens when kids fall in love with a story, they understand it, and then it's also kind of talking to them about the world and about what they're going through, right?

So because I've seen my kids read Front Desk and then all of a sudden they feel like, "Oh, I'm not the only one whose parents have, you know, gotten fired or had grocery problems or this or that," and then they, you know, feel a lot better and, like, a lot less alone and, and able to talk about these issues, which I wasn't able to do as a kid.

I was never able to really tell anyone about the fact that we lived and worked in a motel. So for me, it was just like I was very personally motivated to see it in as many formats, including the graphic novel, because it's so accessible. I mean, it's, it's actually incredible. Like, watching the story come to life through these illustrations has been a magical experience as a creator.

Yes

Yes

Correct. Yes. Totally. Yeah, and I was able to like see, like visually, like see into the motel and what the rooms were like and what the, you know- Yeah ... desk was like and what else Mia was working on. So there are all these little details that we put in which w- weren't in the book, but make it even more like of a richer experience

Speaker 12: Oh my God.

Have to have it.

Speaker 14: Yeah, before it started, yeah

Speaker 11: Yeah. You know, it's like, I, I was talking about the book earlier today, on a, a different, podcast and, it, it, it, it ... I had this experience when I wrote it because it was so easy that I actually had the outrageous thought, "Oh, wow," this'll go to Kelly, and our conversations about writing, "I figured out how to write a novel."

and of course, I hadn't, it was just that that book kind of was a one-off. It wrote itself. It was like, I ... And, and I c- I came to understand that it was a gift, and that is still how I see it now. So when I look at it, it has virtually nothing to do with me, which is the best of all possible circumstances.

It's just like, it is this, it, it was a gift to get to write it, and it has gone out in the world and done things that, are just beyond my understanding. You know? It, it's an opera. It's a, it's a, it's a play that, all kinds of amateur, theaters, you know, put on. It, it just ... And then the thing that kills me the most is teachers read- and librarians reading it aloud in classrooms.

And so I never do a signing where I don't hear from a teacher who told me that, either the class was crying too hard for her to keep on reading, or she couldn't keep on reading, or he

Speaker 14: couldn't keep reading. Yeah.

Speaker 11: Yeah. And, and then a beautiful thing happens because, the class sees the teacher as a human being, and often the, I, I'll hear that a kid will come up and take the book from the teacher and, and read for them.

Um- Aw ... and so, and, and none of that has anything to do with me. It is a book out in the world doing magic without, without anything to do with me, you know? And it's a m- miraculous thing, at, at the risk of making a pun. Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 14: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 13: You live, you lived in... Really? I lived in Hong Kong for 15 years. Where did you teach in Hong Kong?

Yes. Yeah, I know all about, yeah, I, I recognize the name, so yeah

Speaker 12: Okay

Speaker 14: Ah. Ah.

Speaker 12: I mean,

Speaker 14: that

Speaker 12: is beautiful.

Speaker 11: It's

Speaker 13: beautiful

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Well, that's so beautiful. Yes.

Speaker 11: Right? Well, and it's not only that, like, she listened to you and understood, but that she remembered, and then what happens is in her mind, and in all of their minds, it's like, "Oh, you must really care about us," you know? It's just like, it's beautiful. That's, that's beautiful

Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna go first, Kelly, and then, um, you can, um, amplify what I'm gonna say. A- and I don't, you know, it, it, I... That's true. That is, that is true. I have trust. And, and part of that comes from, this is something that I've discovered as Kelly and I have gone back and forth on this podcast, for both of us, the kid that we were has not gone away.

And I have found that for most adults it does. and so this is not a value judgment, it's just for whatever reason, we have access to that kid. I remember so clearly what it was like to be condescended to, to be- Yeah ... lied to, to have somebody, um, uh, like i- i- it's always that frustrating thing to me when people will say, "Oh, is the book too dark?"

It's like, holy moly, kids are living in the same world we're living in. And what a story does is it helps you process those gigantic emotions- Yeah ... and, and it gives a, it gives you a container for your grief. okay, Kelly. Yes.

Speaker 13: Oh, I mean, I'm just completely, you know, with you because you just described it.

I mean, like, I remember being that kid and having so much in my life that I just didn't quite understand, but I can see it. I saw people who lost their jobs and lost their homes and, like, you know, were looking at, you know, stuffing all their contents into one small motel room that they may not even be able to keep paying for.

I mean, just like one thing after another, and there wasn't always someone who could talk to me openly and honestly about what I was seeing, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think that that's what's so great about books, is that we're able to have these hard conversations. 'Cause it's hard to have some of these conversations.

I mean, where do you even begin, right? but that's the thing about seeing a great book and, you know, reading it with your parents or whatever, you know, because it opens up that possibility for a conversation. I was dying to have those conversations. I was thirsty for them. I, I wanted to know about the world.

I wanted to know about money. I wanted to know why certain kids could afford these great jeans that I wanted and I couldn't, you know? And like, little, tiny little things, but also big, big things, you know. And I knew I could like... I held all that in my head constantly, and I just had no way to actually converse with anyone about it.

and so when I write, I, you know, really want to talk about the issues of today, and, and give people, you know, some way, some, some s- sort of helpful thing that they could then maybe start a conversation.

Speaker 14: Yeah

Yeah. Yeah

Speaker 13: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 11: Yeah.

Speaker 13: I've had kids, I've had kids in college email me and go, "It's my first day of college and I'm really scared. But, I'm all moved in and I just thought you'd know that, I'm, I think I'm gonna be okay. I've read, you know, Front Desk like 85 times, and I brought it with me. And I don't know why I'm emailing you, it is 4:00 AM, but here I am."

Speaker 12: That's

Speaker 13: so great. And it's just like, oh, God, of course they think of me and the book as a friend, you know? And it's one of the only books we- What an

Speaker 12: honor.

Speaker 13: What an honor. What an honor. Yeah. Yeah. It just meant that the story spoke to them so deeply, and you can really only get there if you're honest and you have respect for your readers.

Yeah. And in our case, the readers are children, and we have to have this deep respect for their capacity to understand.

Speaker 11: Yeah. Amen. Yeah.

Speaker 15: Right. That's right

Speaker 11: Yeah Yeah. Oh, that's, that's a beautiful point. Nobody's ever made that point. And then, you know, I'm not consciously thinking about any of that, but I, it, it is that thing where the, the kid is just so present. And, you know, it's like I'm a joke among my friends because I'll say, "You know, Mrs.

Abney in first grade said blabbity blah," and everybody's like- ... "You're making it up. You're a fiction writer." And it's like, "No, I just, I just remember it all."

Speaker 13: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think i- it is about us? Like, h- why do you think we're able to tap into that kid, or why did that kid not disappear in us but for some reason- I

Speaker 11: don't, I don't know.

I don't know it. And like I said earlier, it's not even a value judgment that I'm making, it's just a fact. And I wasn't aware of that

Speaker 13: until- Yeah, how did you become aware of it?

Speaker 11: I, well, I remember when I did my very, like, one of my very first interviews for Because of Winn-Dixie, and, and the person who was interviewing me said, "Now, tell me, how is it you get into the mind of a 10-year-old?"

And I was like, "What?" Yeah. You know, because, I mean, the answer is so obvious. I was a 10-year-old. You were a 10-year-old, you know? And I didn't say that, but it, it wasn't, it didn't all click with me until I heard it, it was when Beverly Cleary turned 100, and they were running all these, i- interviews with her.

And she was talking about how the fourth grader in her was right here.

Speaker 14: Oh. And

Speaker 11: I

Speaker 14: thought, "Oh yeah,

Speaker 11: that's the way it is for me," and I don't know why. But Beverly Cleary, you, I, you know, I read, Beverly Cleary, the Ramona books weren't around when I was a

Speaker 12: kid. Yes. I

Speaker 11: read Ramona. But, I read them as an adult.

Oh. I read them as an adult when I was trying to figure out how to write. And I, you know, I was, like, 32 years old and working a hot dog stand- ... falling off my little stool laughing at Ramona. Yeah. I mean, those books, they were old by then, and it did, and I was old. They're still good. Didn't make any difference.

Yeah. They totally, totally work. They're just great. Ugh. Yeah.

Speaker 13: Amazing.

Speaker 11: Yeah.

Speaker 13: See, I heard... First of all, thank you, Kate, for always reminding me that my kid self is with me, 'cause there, I've, we've had moments of, I've had moments of severe crippling doubt and anxiety where Kate has had to talk me, literally knock some sense into me sometimes.

Oh. Um, and she does it by lunging towards her camera and nearly knocking it over and saying to me, "Don't forget your kid self," and she, like, taps her shoulder.

Speaker 14: Yeah.

Speaker 13: Yeah.

Speaker 14: Yeah. Yeah, no.

Speaker 13: Um, really it saved me on this last book that I was writing. But I was gonna say that I had an editor say to me once, the people who can remember that kid self the most are people who had something happen to them when they were a kid that was very, very memorable.

Maybe it could be very traumatic, maybe it could be really positive, but something happened around that time in your life that kind of-

Speaker 11: Yeah ...

Speaker 13: cemented that kid in time.

Speaker 11: That's interesting, yeah. Yeah, I would believe that. And that's a whole different episode altogether. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 13: We're gonna save that for our podcast.

Speaker 11: We're... I, I see that road, and, and the three of us are not gonna go down it, so. But we, we can. We will. But, you know, I don't wanna... It... That's- Yeah ... that's a long

Speaker 13: conversation. We were gonna save that. but that, that does sound really fascinating.

Speaker 11: Yeah.

Speaker 13: Anyways, okay, back to your question.

Speaker 12: Yes. Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 15: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. For sure. That's great. Yeah.

Speaker 13: It's hard in the moment though,

Speaker 15: as- Yeah.

Speaker 13: Yes. Yes, for sure

Speaker 11: yeah. Well, I think that it, and I'll, I'll go first, Kelly, and then you can, um, uh, fill in my, uh, you know, color it in for me. But I think the thing that I would love, because this is a thing that I think that both Kelly and I have found. It's, I say this sometimes that, it's the trifecta of joy. I found what I'm supposed to do, I get to do it, and I am paid to do it.

That's unbelievable. So it might not be writing for you, but I want you to know that you are somebody who can become yourself in the world. It's possible. This has happened for me, and it's happened for Kelly. And then I, I also wanna say that, you know, I know that we have adults, who listen to, to us, and I'm glad that they do because one of the things that I love about us doing this is giving that shout-out to the teacher or librarian at the end.

Because in my experience, it, it's just like when you realize what the teacher has done for you, you're generally, like, 35 or 40 years old, you know? And so it's just like, it's so good for them to hear it now, a- and, and, from the kid's mouth, you know. or sometimes the parent will write in for the kid.

So, yeah. Okay, Kelly.

Speaker 13: No, I mean, exactly what... First of all, like, what you just said was, I'm gonna write it down 'cause that's the trifecta of joy. Um, yeah. That was beautiful. Um, I would say I want them to, to want and crave a longer conversation. Right now, I think that the, our biggest problem, or not, you know, sort of a problem, is that we're so all so used to these short-form content, short, short videos, clips, this and that, and we're losing our appetite for something longer, you know.

Even movies are having a hard time. It's hard to get people to see a movie and to watch it in its entirety without looking at their phone. And when we lose that, thirst for a longer, you know, appreciation for that longer conversation, we start to lose all kinds of stuff. We start to lose nuance and critical thinking and so forth.

So I just hope that kids see... I mean, and they're bite-sized. Like, our podcast is 15 minutes tops once a week. but to be able to, like, listen through to a longer conversation is, I think, such an, such a valuable and fulfilling thing. And I, I really hope that kids can get s- that out of it. And then from there, it's just, like, a short hop and a skip from there to reading.

Speaker 11: Yeah. That's great. That's great.

Speaker 14: Mm-hmm. Ooh. Conversation.

Speaker 11: Oh, conversation for me, connection, and also, a change, that I, it, it... A good story reminds me that it is never too late for me to become who I want to become.

Speaker 13: Oh. So

Speaker 11: yeah.

Speaker 13: I love that. Yeah, like it's never too late to be, to change, to learn. Yeah. Right. To learn, to, to see, and to challenge ourselves, and to grow, which hopefully...

I mean, I always love it when a book leaves me, different than when I started.

Speaker 11: Right. So conversation, connection, change. Okay, Erin, do you wanna put another C in there for whatever you think?

So there's your C, community. So-

Speaker 13: Community.

Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah. Oh

Speaker 13: my God. Yeah.

Speaker 11: Yeah.

Speaker 13: That is why, Kate, you are Kate to Camilo.

Speaker 11: No, this has been so great, Erin. Yeah. It's, it's just, it's the same way I always say to Kelly when we do a podcast, I'm so glad that we're doing this. Um- Mm-hmm ... and that's the way I feel about this conversation, so-

Speaker 14: Aw.

Speaker 11: It's been great

Speaker 12: Yes. And Kate, now onto your pizza. Pizza. Yeah. Pizza.

Speaker 17: Thank you for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading Is Fundamental. I hope today's conversation sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with a fellow literacy champion, and join us next time as we continue exploring what reading inspires.