Leveled Reading, Leveled Minds with Dr. Tim Shanahan
In this episode, host Erin Bailey is joined by Dr. Timothy Shanahan, professor emeritus, former president of the International Literacy Association, and Reading Hall of Fame inductee, for a thought-provoking conversation about his new book, Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives. Dr. Shanahan takes aim at one of education's most widely accepted practices: matching students to texts based on their individual reading level. Drawing on decades of research, he makes a compelling case for why this approach may actually be limiting children's growth and what educators can do differently to truly move readers forward.
About Dr. Tim Shanahan:
Timothy Shanahan is Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the University of Illinois at Chicago where he was Founding Director of the UIC Center for Literacy. Previously, he was director of reading for the Chicago Public Schools. He is author/editor of more than 300 publications on literacy education. His research emphasizes the improvement of reading achievement, teaching reading with challenging text, reading-writing relationships, the and disciplinary literacy.
Tim is past president of the International Literacy Association. He served as a member of the Advisory Board of the National Institute for Literacy under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, and he helped lead the National Reading Panel, convened at the request of Congress to evaluate research on the teaching reading, a major influence on reading education. He chaired two other federal research review panels: the National Literacy Panel for Language Minority Children and Youth, and the National Early Literacy Panel, and helped write the Common Core State Standards.
He was inducted to the Reading Hall of Fame in 2007, and is a former first-grade teacher.
- Dr. Shanahan's Blog: Literacy Blogs | Shanahan on Literacy
- Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives: Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives
Subscribe and listen on Apple podcasts
-
WEBVTT
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript00:00:00.601 --> 00:00:07.261
Erin Bailey: Today I am interviewing Dr. Timothy Shanahan, who similar to me, started out as a first grade teacher.00:00:07.511 --> 00:00:15.701
He then became a distinguished professor emeritus at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where he founded the UIC Center for Literacy.00:00:15.851 --> 00:00:23.951
He served as the president of the International Literacy Association and he was on the advisory board for the National Institute for Literacy under.00:00:24.181 --> 00:00:29.641
Presidents Bush and Obama, and he was inducted into the Reading Hall of Fame in 2007.00:00:30.031 --> 00:00:36.481
And a fun fact that I learned from his book is that he also hiked the Mount Everest base camp with his wife Cindy.00:00:36.481 --> 00:00:37.561
So welcome, Tim.00:00:39.191 --> 00:00:41.021
Tim Shanahan: Good, and good morning to you, Aaron.00:00:41.021 --> 00:00:41.771
Good to see you.00:00:42.566 --> 00:00:43.436
Erin Bailey: Thanks for coming.00:00:43.436 --> 00:00:53.486
So as I just rattled off there, you've had an extraordinary career from classroom teacher to leading the national literacy panels and shaping literacy policy.00:00:53.846 --> 00:01:00.551
Can you share for our listeners a little bit about how your early experiences influenced your views on reading instruction today?00:01:00.771 --> 00:01:00.991
Day.00:01:02.116 --> 00:01:02.326
Tim Shanahan: Yeah.00:01:02.386 --> 00:01:07.516
You know, I started out as a, well, a tutor and then a a teacher's aide and.00:01:08.506 --> 00:01:11.926
Classroom teacher and or a medial reading teacher and so on.00:01:12.886 --> 00:01:16.936
And I think I, I probably, I didn't hit the middle very much.00:01:16.936 --> 00:01:22.906
I was either at the extreme of thinking I was an idiot and didn't know what I was doing and, you know, why was I there?00:01:22.906 --> 00:01:35.626
These poor kids, you know, are being taught by me and they, they should have a real teacher to the other extreme of just super confident I know this stuff and, you know, just certain of how I was doing things was right.00:01:36.211 --> 00:01:49.091
And I think both of those had a long impact on me that, you know, that first part that, that being uncertain of myself and sure that I'm not bringing value, has really.00:01:49.871 --> 00:01:52.211
It's what made me go on to graduate school.00:01:52.211 --> 00:02:00.451
It's what made me seek a doctorate and wanna do research, was really trying to make up for that, trying to figure out what I didn't know.00:02:00.451 --> 00:02:03.121
And that really continues on today.00:02:03.151 --> 00:02:09.731
And then on the other extreme, there were a lot of things I believed and I believe them strongly.00:02:09.831 --> 00:02:11.001
That doesn't make them right.00:02:11.001 --> 00:02:30.091
It just, you know, but I grip to them and they've actually become topics that I've ended up studying that I, you know, I questioned myself on and so
I, you know, certainly one of my strongest initial beliefs was that writing was really important and kids reading development, and that was correct.00:02:30.211 --> 00:02:35.311
And yet it was a lot more complicated than I thought as a teacher.00:02:35.671 --> 00:02:37.596
And that there were a lot of things I could have been.00:02:38.150 --> 00:02:50.360
Issue about teaching kids at their levels and so on was something that I used in the classroom and I was certain that was why people thought I was a good teacher and all that kind of stuff.00:02:50.865 --> 00:03:03.595
And yet as I've studied it over the years, oh, I found out that maybe that wasn't quite as clever an idea as I thought it was, and that I should have been doing some things better.00:03:03.955 --> 00:03:08.425
And so, yeah, that those early experiences have turned out to be.00:03:09.585 --> 00:03:10.725
Really useful.00:03:10.725 --> 00:03:29.665
They've fueled my interest in learning just to make sure I knew more and they've given me topics to pursue that have turned out to be a
lot more complex and a lot more interesting than I recognized when I was so certain of their, you know, my simplistic ideas about them.00:03:29.665 --> 00:03:34.165
So, yeah, my, my early career has been really important to what I do today.00:03:35.495 --> 00:03:36.545
Erin Bailey: I think you hit on it.00:03:36.545 --> 00:03:38.255
I mean, I worked with a lot of teachers.00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:39.670
Training teachers.00:03:39.670 --> 00:03:48.580
I worked at a demonstration school where we had a residency model, and I always, this is what I noticed, first years teachers very clearly admittedly don't know what they're doing.00:03:48.880 --> 00:03:55.180
Second year teachers, they're like, as long as I replicate what I did in the first year, I know I'll at least survive the year.00:03:55.390 --> 00:03:58.205
And then third year teachers is where I always saw.00:03:58.950 --> 00:04:02.250
Folks start to question themselves, what am I doing?00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:04.890
Have I been doing everything wrong this whole time?00:04:04.890 --> 00:04:13.470
And that's, you know, a lot of times when folks go back to graduate school because they see a problem and they want to learn more about it.00:04:14.605 --> 00:04:14.995
Tim Shanahan: Yeah.00:04:14.995 --> 00:04:22.495
You know, there, there really are two groups of teachers that are the ones who get to that third year and go, I got this far, I'll just keep doing this.00:04:22.495 --> 00:04:27.865
And they're the group you're talking about who goes, man, there's gotta be more to it than this.00:04:28.225 --> 00:04:31.525
And they tend to become really good teachers over time.00:04:31.645 --> 00:04:34.915
You know, it's, that's how it seems to work.00:04:35.470 --> 00:04:35.950
Erin Bailey: Yes.00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:38.150
So we're here to talk about this book.00:04:38.150 --> 00:04:40.370
I'm holding up leveled reading, leveled Lives.00:04:40.370 --> 00:04:41.860
It's your newest book.00:04:42.100 --> 00:04:49.600
I do wanna pause for a moment for teachers who are listening to this, 'cause I know I had to say this to myself and I'm sure you did as well.00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:49.860
Tim, is that.00:04:51.280 --> 00:04:52.210
Take a deep breath.00:04:52.450 --> 00:05:00.070
What you're about to hear in the conversation may challenge a lot of what you thought you knew about using instructional texts.00:05:00.610 --> 00:05:03.940
And it's okay if you got it wrong.00:05:03.970 --> 00:05:08.050
It's not because you knew you were doing something wrong and you continue to do it.00:05:08.085 --> 00:05:15.015
You were trained on information that was incorrect, and that's what we're kind of here to debunk today.00:05:15.295 --> 00:05:20.545
So starting with that, why, what motivated you to write this book?00:05:21.935 --> 00:05:37.165
Tim Shanahan: Well, you know, one of those things I talked about being in, in my early toolkit was I had learned to give informal reading inventories and how to get kids into different levels of books that would match their needs and you know, all of that.00:05:37.165 --> 00:05:40.385
And I taught with all the little groups of kids and, you know, all of that.00:05:40.595 --> 00:05:49.215
Stuff I had been told to do and by people who I respected and who I still respect and admire.00:05:49.545 --> 00:06:00.480
But frankly you know, I did that and then when I became a college professor, I taught teachers how to do those things and insisted that was the right way to go.00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:01.740
So this was something.00:06:02.345 --> 00:06:07.475
I had spent a lot of time with over the years and, you know, it wasn't easy in those days.00:06:07.475 --> 00:06:13.895
I, you know, when I say in my early days, you have to understand that was almost 60 years ago that I was doing these things.00:06:14.195 --> 00:06:21.630
And so, you know, it's it, we didn't have all the little books, for example, that teachers have now to be able to.00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:22.780
To level.00:06:22.870 --> 00:06:33.790
And so I'd have to convince my school district to let me buy multiple Baal reader programs so that I would've, you know, different levels of books to be able to use without causing trouble.00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:43.190
And so, you know, and giving an informal reading inventory to every kid, you know, I had more than 30 kids in a classroom in those days.00:06:43.190 --> 00:06:45.470
And so, you know, it just took hours and hours of work.00:06:45.470 --> 00:06:48.440
So these were things that I really spent time on.00:06:48.955 --> 00:06:58.045
When I was early in my professorial career and teaching teachers about things like this, I actually did a I I.00:06:58.660 --> 00:07:09.350
For the first time, read the original study that had been used to set the criteria for determining whether a book was at a kid's instructional level.00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:14.415
And I was stunned because it was as if they just made it up.00:07:14.595 --> 00:07:18.530
It wasn't the, you know, I thought they would've tried to teach kids.00:07:19.060 --> 00:07:21.955
With books at that level and books at another level.00:07:21.955 --> 00:07:23.635
And they found that kids did better.00:07:23.785 --> 00:07:25.555
They didn't teach anybody anything.00:07:25.555 --> 00:07:29.795
They just gave 'em a test and went, oh, that's their instructional level.00:07:30.125 --> 00:07:31.150
It was like, eh.00:07:32.340 --> 00:07:33.600
I wrote about it.00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:40.385
I was, fortunately, I had enough integrity that I reported it so I didn't hide this result.00:07:40.635 --> 00:07:43.805
What I'd found out, but I never wanted to talk about it.00:07:44.020 --> 00:07:48.940
I put that article in my bottom drawer and hope nobody would ever ask me.00:07:49.270 --> 00:07:57.310
I mean, think about it, Aaron if I went into a, you worked with teachers, you go in and you say, oh, look, this scheme was just made up.00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:59.460
There's no evidence that it works.00:07:59.850 --> 00:08:01.500
Hand is gonna go up immediately.00:08:01.650 --> 00:08:02.580
So what do we do?00:08:02.580 --> 00:08:04.020
What's the alternative?00:08:05.010 --> 00:08:06.270
I had no idea.00:08:06.960 --> 00:08:10.770
I, you know, I had no alternative and so I didn't want to talk about it.00:08:11.380 --> 00:08:15.280
And so I kinda left it there for years, just avoiding it.00:08:15.340 --> 00:08:19.700
And then the next, the common core state standards came along.00:08:20.670 --> 00:08:39.870
Now, I worked on the common core state standards, but I had nothing to do with this particular item that they essentially said that to be on grade
level to be accomplish the standards of your level, the things you had to do, you had to do them within text, within a certain range of difficulty.00:08:41.130 --> 00:08:45.930
Standards had avoided that in every state for decades.00:08:46.930 --> 00:08:48.610
I thought, this is gonna be wild.00:08:48.610 --> 00:08:50.440
This, you know, people are gonna complain.00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:51.850
This is gonna be a huge problem.00:08:52.180 --> 00:09:02.590
So I wanted to prepare myself for what was coming, and I started reading the research on this topic that had been conducted more recently.00:09:03.415 --> 00:09:11.695
I was stunned to find that the studies were saying that the way what we were doing wasn't helping kids, it was hurting kids.00:09:11.695 --> 00:09:16.975
We were actually, kids were learning to read, but they weren't learning to read as well as they could have.00:09:18.475 --> 00:09:20.815
And I, so I, wow, this is right.00:09:20.815 --> 00:09:22.495
We should be doing this.00:09:22.835 --> 00:09:29.735
And I, so I wrote about that and I thought it would set off all kinds of big arguments.00:09:30.667 --> 00:09:31.507
Crickets.00:09:31.567 --> 00:09:34.602
It was quiet and that was a real problem because.00:09:35.812 --> 00:09:36.892
I assumed, okay.00:09:37.102 --> 00:09:38.812
The publishers have bought into this.00:09:38.812 --> 00:09:41.002
They're making sure the texts are hard enough.00:09:41.572 --> 00:09:44.422
The school districts are buying into this.00:09:44.422 --> 00:09:47.242
They're purchasing these materials and, you know, putting them in.00:09:47.812 --> 00:09:50.092
The states have this set of standards.00:09:50.092 --> 00:09:52.337
They're testing kids now at these levels.00:09:52.337 --> 00:09:54.077
This is, it's happening.00:09:54.107 --> 00:09:54.702
They're gonna do this.00:09:55.397 --> 00:09:56.927
There's nothing more for me to do.00:09:57.827 --> 00:10:04.937
And then I started seeing the teacher surveys coming in the, you know, nationwide and what had happened.00:10:04.937 --> 00:10:10.457
You'd think, wow, more and more teachers are teaching kids with grade level text went the other way.00:10:10.637 --> 00:10:14.297
Fewer and fewer teachers were teaching kids with grade level texts.00:10:14.597 --> 00:10:18.527
Once it was the standard teachers.00:10:19.367 --> 00:10:23.777
Having to confront difficult text with children.00:10:24.377 --> 00:10:25.877
Were seeing that it was difficult.00:10:25.877 --> 00:10:30.137
They, that the kids were having trouble with it and they had no alternatives.00:10:30.137 --> 00:10:33.257
They were right back where I had been 20 years before.00:10:33.617 --> 00:10:36.377
This might be right, but we don't know what to do.00:10:36.752 --> 00:10:44.612
By this point I, for fortunately, felt like I, I actually had a much better purchase on what should we be doing.00:10:44.942 --> 00:10:48.752
And so I decided at that point we needed a book.00:10:49.022 --> 00:10:51.437
We needed something that would both.00:10:52.602 --> 00:11:08.372
Be substantial enough that policy makers and school administrators and so on could buy into and would understand fully, but also that would have enough practical direction that teachers and teacher educators could look and say.00:11:09.017 --> 00:11:10.697
Oh yeah, we could do that.00:11:10.727 --> 00:11:12.712
You know, it, this is manageable.00:11:12.712 --> 00:11:15.462
It isn't you know, for so many years.00:11:15.512 --> 00:11:25.982
If you go through reading textbooks, you know, for teachers and so on, what you'll see is they didn't include anything about what do you do if the text are hard for the kids.00:11:26.012 --> 00:11:28.862
It was always move the kids to an easier text.00:11:29.162 --> 00:11:34.262
It's malpractice not to, and therefore there was nothing there for teachers and so.00:11:34.512 --> 00:11:39.552
Giving some practical guidance based on research and so on made a lot of sense.00:11:39.552 --> 00:11:40.902
And so that's why I wrote the book.00:11:40.952 --> 00:11:48.172
It really was something that we really need to take on if we actually wanna raise reading achievement in the United States.00:11:48.985 --> 00:11:54.320
Erin Bailey: I'm picturing myself as a first grade teacher now, and I had the library.00:11:54.590 --> 00:12:04.100
The classroom library that was organized with the bins a, you know, A through Z kind of bins and it was your, this is your independent reading level.00:12:04.100 --> 00:12:08.000
So go to the Level J Box and pick out the Level J book.00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:16.130
And I know for teachers listening right now who have similar organization in their classroom, they are on the edge of their seats.00:12:16.130 --> 00:12:16.610
Like what?00:12:17.525 --> 00:12:18.815
Are they supposed to do?00:12:18.815 --> 00:12:19.325
So what?00:12:19.715 --> 00:12:26.315
What do you hope is the outcome from your book for how teachers should help students find texts?00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:43.720
Tim Shanahan: Well, you know, the like I say, most states have standards now, you know, a lot of 'em have gotten away from the common core, but they haven't gotten
away from this notion of saying, gee, if you're a third grader, you should be able to read text with comprehension of, you know, certain levels of difficulty.00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:44.290
And they've got.00:12:45.175 --> 00:12:51.535
Lexis and three, four or five other schemes that you can use to, to determine levels.00:12:51.565 --> 00:13:03.335
And because these levels are far from perfect, they're ranges, you know, it's not a single point, you know, it's, you know, and they overlap a bit from grade level to grade level as well.00:13:03.335 --> 00:13:08.265
So, there's a lot of latitude, but there is a level of difficulty.00:13:08.265 --> 00:13:10.095
The state says that you should be.00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:11.430
Aiming for.00:13:11.430 --> 00:13:24.030
And the reason why that is, is essentially in the past, like when I was a teacher, you know, long before you were, but when I was a teacher, you know, the publishing companies pretty much set the levels however they chose to.00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.180
And that had been true for more than a hundred years at that point.00:13:27.530 --> 00:13:32.210
Now they're, you know, there's actually a scheme in place.00:13:32.705 --> 00:13:36.215
That tells you what a third grade level book would be.00:13:36.495 --> 00:13:42.775
You know, again, it's imperfect and so on, but it's, it is wide enough and overlapping enough that it's very workable.00:13:43.255 --> 00:13:54.775
And what that means is if we actually accomplish that moving kids from level to level successfully, what you'll see is by the time kids leave high school, they'll have the levels of literacy that they need.00:13:55.315 --> 00:13:57.895
And so it's really important that teachers.00:13:58.660 --> 00:14:03.400
Actually make sure kids accomplish the levels that are set for their grades.00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:15.860
And what that means is if you had a book room, if you had your, you know, all your you know, curtains of books set up the way that you described or whatever, you don't have to throw any of that stuff away.00:14:15.860 --> 00:14:17.690
It's not, oh, let's destroy this.00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:21.680
It's, let's figure out which ones fit my.00:14:22.175 --> 00:14:35.435
Fifth grade or my second grade it's not oh, everybody's at their own level and I'm gonna, you know, this kid should be working in, you know, in an H book and this kid should be working in an M book and no.00:14:35.810 --> 00:14:40.850
Now you've got a range of books to work with and all your kids should be working at those.00:14:41.160 --> 00:14:49.380
And therefore we might need to sort the books a little differently in terms of, you know, which grades get which books and so on.00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:53.660
But beyond that it's the same books for the most part.00:14:53.660 --> 00:14:55.870
And it's you know, books though that are.00:14:56.380 --> 00:14:56.530
Yeah.00:14:56.530 --> 00:15:11.210
Of a certain range of difficulty that you didn't have to worry about before you, you could, you were worried about trying to match it to the youngster in a particular way, and now you've gotta match it to your grade level in a particular way.00:15:11.520 --> 00:15:18.750
And then you have to adjust your instruction for those kids so that everybody has a chance of succeeding.00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:20.130
That it's a big shift.00:15:20.135 --> 00:15:23.400
It, it really is a very different way of looking at things.00:15:24.575 --> 00:15:35.605
Erin Bailey: So there are text levels or a range of text for a grade band, but the idea is that if you're in third grade, you should be ranging, you should be reading.00:15:35.965 --> 00:15:44.005
Within that range, you shouldn't be placed in a first grade level text because that's what you are able to read, so it's really on the teacher.00:15:44.005 --> 00:15:49.015
Then what needs to change is the teacher's level of scaffolding and instruction.00:15:49.345 --> 00:15:53.095
The teacher serves as the scaffold, the text doesn't serve as the scaffold.00:15:54.215 --> 00:16:00.020
Tim Shanahan: That's exactly right and so, you know, if you think about it, the way that we used to talk about this.00:16:00.910 --> 00:16:05.680
And the way some people still do is there are really only two variables in this problem.00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:09.340
There's the youngsters reading level and there's the books level.00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:17.840
And alls we have to do is make sure that we've put the right book to each child, and if we do that, they're gonna grow.00:16:18.020 --> 00:16:20.810
They're gonna make optimum gains in reading.00:16:21.170 --> 00:16:22.010
That was the belief.00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:28.400
The real issue the real problem that we're dealing with is really a three variable problem.00:16:28.430 --> 00:16:31.040
There's a book and it has a level.00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:41.960
There's a kid and he or she has a level and there's a teacher, and the teacher has to orchestrate how well the youngster can handle that, that text frankly.00:16:42.285 --> 00:16:56.145
The scheme that's been in place for so long minimized the teacher's role and essentially the teacher was there more for when things go off the tracks than actually to having the book was gonna teach kids.00:16:56.145 --> 00:17:00.675
The reading was gonna teach kids, the teacher wasn't gonna have to do very much of it.00:17:00.675 --> 00:17:02.535
That's a big shift.00:17:02.705 --> 00:17:03.215
Erin Bailey: Yes.00:17:03.755 --> 00:17:08.465
And is it the same for content area reading?00:17:08.465 --> 00:17:17.075
So let's say I'm a fifth grade teacher and I'm teaching my students about the American Revolution, and I wanna use a text to do that.00:17:17.225 --> 00:17:19.355
Should it be a fifth grade level text?00:17:19.355 --> 00:17:24.035
Or if a student's reading more at a third grade level, can I differentiate the text?00:17:24.035 --> 00:17:27.275
Because it's really about the content, not the reading.00:17:28.670 --> 00:17:28.970
Tim Shanahan: Yeah.00:17:28.970 --> 00:17:38.890
You know, I think what you see in most schools is that teachers don't have multiple books to choose from when it comes to something like teaching the American Revolution.00:17:39.250 --> 00:17:44.470
And so they might have a textbook or you know, some, a approved set of books that are.00:17:44.965 --> 00:17:46.285
Tend to be grade level.00:17:46.285 --> 00:18:02.755
And what teachers have done with those over the years is either read those to the kids, had the best readers, read it to everybody,
you know, round robin kind of style, told, you know, just made the book optional and just told the kids what they needed to learn.00:18:02.755 --> 00:18:04.885
You know, did a PowerPoint or whatever.00:18:05.515 --> 00:18:09.595
Or just ignored the fact that the kids couldn't handle it and didn't know what they were doing with it.00:18:09.595 --> 00:18:12.500
And you know, you go, well, none of those are gonna work.00:18:12.555 --> 00:18:19.595
And so you know what reading people like me would've told them years ago is, oh, you have to find an easier book there.00:18:19.595 --> 00:18:23.765
You know, there are easier books about the American Revolution and there probably are.00:18:24.410 --> 00:18:27.620
But they don't go to the same level of depth in the content.00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:29.420
They don't have the level of detail.00:18:29.570 --> 00:18:44.055
And so we actually we're cutting kids off from the curriculum and so yeah, I would really argue that the same kinds of techniques that teachers can use to scaffold the reading book are the same kinds of things that they could be doing.00:18:44.570 --> 00:19:02.480
With the history book and the science book, not saying there are no adjustments needed or there aren't some issues different in those situations
but the same notion is in place instead of avoiding dealing with grade level text, we need to enable kids to deal with a grade level text.00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:04.740
Erin Bailey: Yeah, that makes sense.00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:09.510
I mean, and what do you think about the use of AI to differentiate text?00:19:09.510 --> 00:19:13.835
Because I see that a lot too in webinars that I go to is you can use AI too.00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:22.310
And I'm not saying to do this, but feed in your text about the American Revolution and say, now make this at a third grade level so my students can read it better.00:19:22.310 --> 00:19:23.960
What is your recommendation there?00:19:25.010 --> 00:19:26.420
Tim Shanahan: Grab your wallet and run.00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:26.840
Erin Bailey: I.00:19:27.735 --> 00:19:30.195
Tim Shanahan: it's it is it's terrible.00:19:30.195 --> 00:19:32.085
I, it scares the heck outta me.00:19:32.385 --> 00:19:38.525
It's, you know, I talked to a lawyer recently who was saying, well, given that we have AI and the things AI can do.00:19:39.125 --> 00:19:41.765
There's no need, need to teach people to read anymore.00:19:41.765 --> 00:19:43.295
They don't need to know how to read.00:19:43.725 --> 00:19:50.055
And I think this is sort of falls under that same notion, well, gee, the kid can't handle a fifth grade book.00:19:50.235 --> 00:19:51.675
I'm not gonna teach 'em to do it.00:19:51.675 --> 00:19:52.905
I'm just going to move them.00:19:53.115 --> 00:19:56.025
You know, I can have this text rewritten and in fact.00:19:56.315 --> 00:19:56.615
Gee.00:19:56.615 --> 00:19:57.935
Kids could use ai.00:19:57.935 --> 00:20:02.735
They could just, if they need to read a book, they can just feed it in and have the AI read it to them.00:20:03.105 --> 00:20:04.005
Or dumb it down.00:20:04.095 --> 00:20:05.835
Gee, you know, I can't read it all.00:20:05.865 --> 00:20:07.665
Dumb it down to a first grade level.00:20:07.905 --> 00:20:08.895
You know, what the heck?00:20:09.085 --> 00:20:21.565
The fact is what we've known for years and years, when you make texts easy, when you reduce the difficulty of a text by the kinds of changes that we tend to make when we edit them.00:20:22.280 --> 00:20:26.570
Quite often what happens is the text don't actually even get easier.00:20:26.570 --> 00:20:31.470
They actually get harder because often you cut away a lot of the detail.00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:37.230
You make sure that certain words aren't repeated as often and so on because they have too many syllables.00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:39.420
And so we want the thing to look easier.00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:43.900
And what happens is the texts get well, actually less understandable.00:20:44.020 --> 00:20:49.970
There are a number of studies where people have rewritten texts to make them more understandable.00:20:50.340 --> 00:20:52.320
And their lexile levels go up.00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:57.090
They're actually, without, they predict that it'll be less understandable.00:20:57.090 --> 00:21:01.020
You know, they're using harder words, they're using longer sentences and so on.00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:07.380
And yet, oops, they, you know, the kids actually do better with those harder texts.00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:15.655
And so, you know, I, nobody has tested the ability of AI to actually come up with texts that are.00:21:16.885 --> 00:21:24.700
Easier and actually communicate the same information and without making it fuzzier or less specific or whatever.00:21:24.700 --> 00:21:29.350
So I think it's a big mistake for schools to do that.00:21:29.350 --> 00:21:33.790
What I'd much rather have a school do is feed the text in and ask it.00:21:34.150 --> 00:21:36.580
What's gonna make this difficult for a reader?00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:40.790
What are the least the words that are least familiar to most people?00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.890
What sentences are likely to be more complicated and could trip somebody up?00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:50.810
What ideas are harder to link across the text and let AI tell you?00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:54.080
'cause it can do some really good analyses of those kinds of things.00:21:54.260 --> 00:22:01.010
Not perfect again, but still quite good, which would save teachers a lot of time, or save publishers a lot of time.00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:09.055
But then somebody has to actually teach the kids how to deal with that rather than how could we keep the kids from having to deal with it.00:22:10.350 --> 00:22:12.590
Erin Bailey: That is wonderful advice.00:22:12.590 --> 00:22:21.110
I know teachers are going to appreciate that, and it goes back to what we said earlier is you as the teacher, you're scaffolding your instruction.00:22:21.290 --> 00:22:28.810
You're not scaffolding the text, so you can use AI to figure out you know, I teach mostly multilingual learners.00:22:28.810 --> 00:22:40.640
Are there any idioms in this text that are going, that I need to front load or pre-teach or stop when we get to it and monitor and clarify for understanding rather than just make this into an easier text.00:22:41.600 --> 00:22:52.640
Tim Shanahan: Exactly, but you know, what we've done for years is found ways of avoiding the difficulties and the problem is the difficulties are what you have to learn to deal with.00:22:53.180 --> 00:22:59.180
And so if I always make sure that you don't have that difficulty, you're only gonna have 'em when you're on your own.00:22:59.615 --> 00:23:01.895
You're not gonna know what to do with them.00:23:02.285 --> 00:23:06.335
And so what we should be doing is turning that around and saying, oh no.00:23:06.335 --> 00:23:18.365
I want kids to have difficulties with the text when they're dealing with them, with my assistance because I can make sure that they surmount it, I can show them what to do when they get into that kind of a spot.00:23:18.815 --> 00:23:21.875
And over time I can make them good at that.00:23:21.875 --> 00:23:26.465
I can, you know, build a proficiency so that these kids aren't afraid of hard techs.00:23:26.780 --> 00:23:28.580
But they're able to handle it.00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:30.410
You know, kids actually prefer it.00:23:30.470 --> 00:23:32.120
That's one of the interesting things.00:23:32.170 --> 00:23:37.630
They would much rather be reading the harder text than the ones we've been putting them in.00:23:39.072 --> 00:23:43.807
Erin Bailey: I believe it especially when the topic, you know, is interesting to them.00:23:45.277 --> 00:23:45.547
Tim Shanahan: Yeah.00:23:45.552 --> 00:23:46.282
Oh, absolutely.00:23:46.802 --> 00:23:47.082
Absolutely.00:23:47.990 --> 00:23:51.410
Erin Bailey: So I wanna get back to KI kindergarten and first grade.00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:58.250
'cause as I mentioned, you know, I'm a first grade teacher and I'm just sweating right now of what kind of text do I use to teach reading.00:23:58.250 --> 00:24:04.760
So from your book, you know, most of the studies that you cite for using grade level texts are second grade through high school.00:24:05.090 --> 00:24:12.560
What kind of texts should kindergarten and first grade teachers be using to really build up those foundational reading skills?00:24:13.675 --> 00:24:18.115
Tim Shanahan: Yeah, I, you know, I do think it's different for beginners than it is later on.00:24:18.195 --> 00:24:20.655
I certainly and your point is well taken.00:24:20.955 --> 00:24:28.665
There are absolutely no studies with beginning readers saying that you need to place them in much harder text.00:24:28.665 --> 00:24:32.345
That's something that the studies begin at second grade.00:24:32.375 --> 00:24:39.810
So I always tell teachers if the youngsters can read, I'd say like a. Average end of year, first grader.00:24:40.785 --> 00:24:50.485
They're ready to handle grade level text From then on that if they're lower than that, they're still trying to get the basics of decoding.00:24:50.515 --> 00:24:54.895
Now, it isn't that you're, oh, once you're done with first grade, you're done with learning to decode.00:24:54.895 --> 00:24:57.485
That goes on, you know, for a lot longer.00:24:58.030 --> 00:25:07.040
But you've got the foundations, you've got the basics of it, you understand the principles of it and you have some of the more common patterns under your belt.00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:08.270
And so that's all you know.00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:09.125
That's all to the good.00:25:09.425 --> 00:25:12.455
For a young reader, I, you probably did it as well.00:25:12.455 --> 00:25:16.415
I'd ask my first graders what made reading hard and they'd tell you the words.00:25:16.695 --> 00:25:20.085
And in fact, it is the words that make things hard for a beginner.00:25:20.085 --> 00:25:22.035
They can't read the words.00:25:22.415 --> 00:25:33.185
The note, if you wanted the text to be much harder for a first grader, the way you would do that wouldn't be, oh, let's get unfamiliar content or really complicated sentences.00:25:33.425 --> 00:25:36.905
It would be, let's make the text less decodable.00:25:37.335 --> 00:25:45.195
In other words, use words that have spelling patterns that the kids haven't confronted yet and don't have any idea how to deal with.00:25:45.855 --> 00:25:50.365
And make sure when you do introduce words that you don't repeat them very often.00:25:50.735 --> 00:26:00.665
You know, if you do those things, you're gonna make sure that text is really hard, that you're also going to slow down the kids' progress and learning to decode, and that's not what we wanna do.00:26:00.665 --> 00:26:02.825
So I would say with beginners.00:26:03.625 --> 00:26:07.825
You want texts that have a reasonably high degree of decodable.00:26:08.155 --> 00:26:12.355
People go a little crazy with this, you know, it's not, oh, everything has to be perfect.00:26:12.445 --> 00:26:14.935
Yeah, no, you don't have to do that.00:26:14.935 --> 00:26:16.135
And the research is really clear.00:26:16.135 --> 00:26:24.235
You don't have to do that, but it doesn't make sense to teach kids a skill and then not give 'em any chance to practice it.00:26:24.925 --> 00:26:35.295
And so, you know, decodable text allow me to give kids a more intensive degree of practice with a particular pattern or, you know, spelling you know, rule or whatever.00:26:35.675 --> 00:26:40.055
That frankly, you know that than they would in just any ordinary text.00:26:40.055 --> 00:26:42.725
And so it's really useful to have that high dec accountability.00:26:43.295 --> 00:26:45.035
It's also very useful.00:26:45.335 --> 00:26:50.255
To have words in there that aren't necess, that don't necessarily fit the patterns.00:26:50.255 --> 00:26:51.785
Maybe they're exceptions.00:26:52.165 --> 00:27:04.085
The example I often use is, oh, you know, we teach kids that, that pattern vowel, consonant, silent, e you know, if you have that word you know that, you know, has that pattern.00:27:04.305 --> 00:27:06.315
The vowel is going to say its name.00:27:06.315 --> 00:27:08.805
It'll be a long vowel or a stressed vowel.00:27:08.805 --> 00:27:13.795
And so, you know, if you come to the word came you know exactly what to do with that.00:27:13.795 --> 00:27:17.485
A because of the e sound or you know, those kinds of things.00:27:17.905 --> 00:27:21.715
Well, that does work a lot and it's very useful.00:27:21.715 --> 00:27:23.275
It's a good pattern to learn.00:27:24.085 --> 00:27:26.605
But there are exceptions to it.00:27:26.605 --> 00:27:28.975
And so what about the word done?00:27:29.035 --> 00:27:30.205
What about the word come?00:27:30.205 --> 00:27:31.795
What about, you know, those different word?00:27:32.005 --> 00:27:39.365
Well, gee they, they have that spelling pattern, but they don't actually lead to that same pronunciation.00:27:39.575 --> 00:27:45.155
I would love to see decodable text that throw in some words like that.00:27:45.155 --> 00:27:49.905
So the kids have to distinguish you know, but that isn't how they tend to do it.00:27:49.905 --> 00:27:51.195
So we kind of overdo the decodable.00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.270
But you do want kids to see those patterns a lot.00:27:55.300 --> 00:28:09.400
And then the second thing is, especially for words that either are exceptions or aren't gonna follow the pattern, the word of the word the, those words need to come up a lot and they need to be repeated frequently.00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:14.650
And if you have other words, more complicated, oh, you know, we want to use the word dinosaur.00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.460
Nothing wrong with using the word dinosaur with a first grader.00:28:19.375 --> 00:28:26.245
Unless you're only gonna show it to 'em a couple times in the story, you know that word dinosaur should come up a lot.00:28:26.465 --> 00:28:28.190
So that it is worth learning.00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:29.540
It's worth remembering.00:28:29.910 --> 00:28:40.140
And so I, I would argue for a combination of decodable texts and what I usually referred to our controlled vocabulary readers, that is.00:28:40.685 --> 00:28:47.195
Books that aren't gonna have that many different words, but they're going to repeat those individual words a lot.00:28:47.575 --> 00:28:50.785
You know, I think of the old basal readers, the Dick and Jane kind of thing.00:28:51.415 --> 00:28:53.425
You know, look and run dick Run.00:28:53.815 --> 00:28:56.995
You know, that kind of thing where, well, those are kind of silly.00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.505
Uhhuh and decodable text can be kind of silly too.00:29:00.655 --> 00:29:05.575
But the fact is they help kids to build those basic reading skills.00:29:05.695 --> 00:29:07.825
And once they have those.00:29:08.435 --> 00:29:20.285
Then you have a lot more free reign to be able to say, now I want kids to deal with some other kinds of complexity, more language complexity and content complexity.00:29:20.565 --> 00:29:21.315
Not so much.00:29:21.685 --> 00:29:23.185
Decoding complexity.00:29:23.185 --> 00:29:28.805
And so you can like I say, by, certainly by the beginning of second grade, most kids are ready to go.00:29:29.145 --> 00:29:36.375
You still might have some laggards and that's, you know, very reasonable to protect them for a little while.00:29:36.705 --> 00:29:40.785
But at some point they really need to shift over to the grade level stuff.00:29:42.150 --> 00:29:48.140
Erin Bailey: I'm sure that's very helpful for the kinder and first grade teachers who are listening that they don't need to make all the changes.00:29:48.740 --> 00:30:05.450
Mean we've come a really long way with decodable text, but I do think we're, you know, a lot of companies have taken it a little bit too
far to your point of just like trying to go for a hundred percent de ability and it doesn't make a very interesting story, first of all.00:30:05.610 --> 00:30:06.360
And then I.00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:21.290
Tim Shanahan: It doesn't make an interesting story and it also has the tendency to mislead the kids to think that the system is a hundred percent consistent when it's conditional, where, you know, gee, this pattern works.00:30:21.370 --> 00:30:23.560
67% of the time.00:30:23.560 --> 00:30:31.900
But that means a third of the time when I come to this pattern, I've gotta know what my alternatives are, or I have to remember that this is exceptional.00:30:32.210 --> 00:30:38.450
And if kids don't learn that, they don't become very good readers.00:30:38.750 --> 00:30:45.890
And so this notion of we want everything to be perfectly decodable, really can do some harm in the long run.00:30:46.875 --> 00:30:49.995
Erin Bailey: What about, so you mentioned controlled vocabulary.00:30:49.995 --> 00:30:57.705
Is that similar to repetitive text where every page is, look at the boat, look at the bike.00:30:57.735 --> 00:30:59.025
You, I'm sure you've seen00:30:59.115 --> 00:30:59.535
Tim Shanahan: No.00:30:59.535 --> 00:31:01.545
Oh I'm so glad you asked that.00:31:01.545 --> 00:31:05.235
I actually enjoy working with those kinds of books with kids.00:31:05.235 --> 00:31:05.955
They're fun to read.00:31:05.955 --> 00:31:19.015
The kids, I like them to, as a starting point for some beginning writing, but for teaching reading, they're really lousy because in fact, they discourage kids from looking at the words you know, brown Bear.00:31:19.015 --> 00:31:19.765
What do you see?00:31:19.765 --> 00:31:21.565
I see a yellow duck looking at me.00:31:21.565 --> 00:31:22.135
Yellow duck.00:31:22.135 --> 00:31:22.675
Yellow duck.00:31:22.675 --> 00:31:23.395
What do you see?00:31:23.395 --> 00:31:23.630
I see.00:31:23.925 --> 00:31:30.555
By the time you get to the third stands of that kindergartners are reciting it, but they don't have the text in front of them.00:31:31.045 --> 00:31:35.035
Yeah, but they don't, but they don't have the text in front of them.00:31:35.135 --> 00:31:36.395
And that's what happens.00:31:36.395 --> 00:31:39.155
And so when you go, oh, I went to the store and ate ice cream.00:31:39.155 --> 00:31:40.985
I went to the store and ate candy.00:31:40.985 --> 00:31:47.350
I went to the store, and it's the kids are just looking at the picture to figure out what the one word is.00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:51.280
They're not looking at the word and they're certainly not looking at the other words.00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:52.960
And the teachers go, oh, that's great.00:31:53.010 --> 00:31:53.670
They're reading.00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:58.290
Well, no, they're not really reading and they're not even doing anything that's like reading.00:31:58.940 --> 00:32:03.470
Because you don't guess the words from pictures, and you do need to look at all the words.00:32:03.830 --> 00:32:08.990
So I would really discourage the use of those kinds of pattern books or those repetitive sentences.00:32:09.350 --> 00:32:15.380
So you want repetitive words, and so that means the sentences have to be more varied than that.00:32:15.590 --> 00:32:18.200
That requires you to actually go and read.00:32:18.770 --> 00:32:20.720
Oh, I went to the store.00:32:20.990 --> 00:32:23.710
I went to the store with my friend Millie.00:32:24.225 --> 00:32:25.005
Ate ice cream.00:32:25.545 --> 00:32:28.935
It's, whoa, you know, it's more complicated.00:32:28.935 --> 00:32:36.225
I, you know, I had ice cream too, you know, and so you're repeating a lot of the words, Millie and I like ice cream.00:32:36.645 --> 00:32:38.625
You know, we like to go to the store.00:32:38.905 --> 00:32:41.185
You know, you go, wow, you're repeating a lot of words.00:32:41.185 --> 00:32:43.045
I am, but not sentences.00:32:43.315 --> 00:32:45.655
And so the kids are having to actually.00:32:45.945 --> 00:32:51.955
Figure out what each of the words is and that's where the decodable should be helping.00:32:52.135 --> 00:32:54.625
That's where the word repetition should be helping.00:32:54.805 --> 00:33:02.765
Gee, they didn't teach ice cream, but the word ice that, those two words, ice cream came up six times in nine pages, you know?00:33:02.765 --> 00:33:03.065
Wow.00:33:03.065 --> 00:33:10.835
The kids saw that a lot, and in fact, a lot of them were reading it much faster by the third or fourth time because they'd seen it before.00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:13.860
I hope it comes up in the next story too.00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.440
A very different story perhaps, but that, that also repeats it.00:33:19.830 --> 00:33:30.180
You wanna avoid texts that have a lot of what the researchers refer to as singletons words that are only gonna come up once or twice and you're just not gonna see it again.00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:32.460
Those just overwhelm kids.00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:38.910
They make the text harder without actually facilitating the kids learning anything about reading.00:33:40.290 --> 00:33:42.720
The content either so.00:33:43.695 --> 00:33:47.445
Erin Bailey: So those story, I'm calling them story words or story vocabulary.00:33:47.715 --> 00:33:55.905
It sometimes kids do, I hate to use the word memorization because it's seen as, you know, a bad word now, but sometimes they do just memorize those words.00:33:55.905 --> 00:34:01.545
They haven't mastered the that phonics yet, but to your point, they see ice cream in a decodable book.00:34:01.875 --> 00:34:06.285
Besides the word ice cream and maybe the teacher front loaded, this is the word ice cream.00:34:06.285 --> 00:34:08.465
You're gonna see it a bunch of times in this book.00:34:08.465 --> 00:34:13.835
So sometimes it is okay to just memorize words if that phonic scheme isn't available to you yet.00:34:14.230 --> 00:34:15.460
Tim Shanahan: It absolutely is.00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:20.500
And it's even okay to memorize some words that fit the phonics scheme that you have the kids try to read.00:34:20.500 --> 00:34:27.400
But now I want you to see them often enough that frankly, they're automatic for you, that you're not having to sound them out or figure them out.00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:29.990
We don't really know what goes into memory.00:34:30.985 --> 00:34:39.445
Well, you know, some people there, there've been claims over the years that it's patterns and that's, you know, decoding fits that very nicely, that you learn those patterns.00:34:39.445 --> 00:34:43.005
You learn, oh I, I can see that there's a silent E at the end of this word.00:34:43.005 --> 00:34:45.255
And so that's pro, you know, it's that kind of thing.00:34:45.555 --> 00:34:53.235
Some people used to think it was rules, but there's some reasons to think that maybe not, and some people believe No, you actually, you learn the words.00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:04.370
Put those words in memory and, you know, your brain is, when it comes to a new word, it's kinda sorting through and looking for something that, that's similar to it in some ways.00:35:04.890 --> 00:35:10.500
My hunch is it's a lot of different things that go into memory and so yeah, kids are learning patterns.00:35:11.325 --> 00:35:17.715
But they're also learning words, and so it's okay to memorize words or to see some words often enough.00:35:18.075 --> 00:35:23.025
You taught first grade, you know what it's like beginning of the year, you try to teach words to kids.00:35:23.445 --> 00:35:33.455
It can take a long time, you know, oh we did 15 repetitions and little Johnny still didn't know it the next day, or he knew it the first day, but he didn't know it the second day.00:35:34.325 --> 00:35:36.065
What's going on by mid-year?00:35:37.535 --> 00:35:45.695
Gosh, I, you know, I introduced a word once or twice, and the kids, it sticks in their memory what's going on and what's going on is whatever they're learning.00:35:46.325 --> 00:35:54.005
They're reshaping the memory system to be able to remember words and to connect words to, you know, what's in print.00:35:54.005 --> 00:35:56.395
And they get better and better at that.00:35:57.055 --> 00:35:59.485
That's what we mean by site vocabulary.00:35:59.485 --> 00:36:02.605
They look at a word, they know what it is immediately.00:36:02.985 --> 00:36:08.565
And so you know, it, we're not teaching them phonics so they can sound out words.00:36:08.565 --> 00:36:10.425
So that's what they do initially.00:36:10.665 --> 00:36:17.845
You're really reshaping how they think about words so that when they see them, they put 'em into memory in a useful way.00:36:18.025 --> 00:36:21.955
And I think that's what phonics gives you without phonics.00:36:21.985 --> 00:36:28.975
Kids memorize words and then they have to figure out the pattern themselves, which works.00:36:29.720 --> 00:36:31.040
But not quite as well.00:36:31.550 --> 00:36:32.660
Fewer kids get it.00:36:33.165 --> 00:36:36.625
Erin Bailey: Some kids can do that very well and others not.00:36:37.185 --> 00:36:38.955
Tim Shanahan: Exactly, and that's the problem.00:36:39.195 --> 00:36:46.275
And so, and I, if we could predict ahead of time, if I could tell you, well little Janie here is gonna be able to figure that out.00:36:46.275 --> 00:36:48.345
And so you don't need to teach phonics.00:36:48.345 --> 00:36:51.525
And little Jimmy, he is gonna need a real heavy dose of it.00:36:51.795 --> 00:36:52.845
That would be terrific.00:36:52.845 --> 00:36:53.865
But the fact is.00:36:54.345 --> 00:37:01.585
We don't know which kids need a bunch of it and which need a little bit, and which can, you know, get by with less or more.00:37:01.825 --> 00:37:10.195
And so it's really important that everybody get an opportunity and that's where that explicit instruction becomes so important for those beginners.00:37:10.225 --> 00:37:12.895
We don't wanna mislead them though.00:37:12.895 --> 00:37:13.255
And that's.00:37:13.905 --> 00:37:26.505
Too much dec accountability or too consistent a set of spelling patterns and not enough attention to the memorization aspects of all this can be problematic for at least some of the kids.00:37:27.225 --> 00:37:29.140
Erin Bailey: Very helpful for teachers.00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:34.235
So we talked about instructional text, you know, that's what you're using to teach.00:37:34.660 --> 00:37:35.080
Reading.00:37:35.290 --> 00:37:37.720
What about leisure reading?00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:48.250
You know, sh should students be reading texts that are easy or independent level for them during their leisure time, or should they still be tackling challenging texts or does it matter?00:37:49.028 --> 00:38:00.048
Tim Shanahan: Well, you know, we've always assumed and had some evidence showing that the lowest readers tend to take harder books, and of course that makes sense that they would take harder books than they can read.00:38:00.198 --> 00:38:03.048
If you can't read very well, most books are gonna be harder.00:38:03.318 --> 00:38:07.023
And so, you know, just by chance you're gonna, you're gonna pick more of those.00:38:08.028 --> 00:38:14.148
But what the studies actually show is even the best readers don't select books at their in independent level.00:38:14.368 --> 00:38:17.938
Our good readers don't wanna read books at their independent level.00:38:17.938 --> 00:38:30.453
They wanna read harder books and so they tend to go I kids tend to choose what is aspirational, what they wanna be able to read, and there's nothing wrong with that there, you know, that can actually.00:38:30.993 --> 00:38:32.523
Lead to a lot of learning.00:38:32.983 --> 00:38:40.153
In the, in my book, one of the things I share a kind of a vignette of a librarian who's dealing with this.00:38:40.153 --> 00:38:48.013
You know, the kids wanna take books outta the library and here's this, you know, little kid who comes up and says, you know, here's the book I want to take out this week.00:38:48.013 --> 00:38:50.653
And the teacher, the librarian, looks and goes.00:38:51.348 --> 00:38:52.368
He can't read that.00:38:52.368 --> 00:38:54.228
You know, that's way too hard for him.00:38:54.508 --> 00:38:59.218
And so typically what they do is tell 'em no, you know, you gotta go pick something else.00:38:59.218 --> 00:39:00.148
And like, oh no.00:39:00.268 --> 00:39:01.168
Don't do that.00:39:01.628 --> 00:39:04.268
One, you could just let him give it a try.00:39:04.698 --> 00:39:10.308
If you're really worried about it and don't think it's gonna give him practice reading that he's gonna end up just looking at the pictures.00:39:10.308 --> 00:39:14.358
You might say something to him like, oh, you're interested in World War ii.00:39:14.388 --> 00:39:17.208
You know, that book's gonna be really hard for you.00:39:18.618 --> 00:39:23.568
I think you should try it, but would you like me to find another one easier just in case it's too hard?00:39:23.568 --> 00:39:25.548
You know, you could take both of them out this week.00:39:25.848 --> 00:39:27.168
That would be one kind of thing.00:39:27.168 --> 00:39:34.338
Or you know, Johnny, if you find that it's too hard for you and you'd like something easier on that, you'd let me know and I'll help you find one.00:39:34.698 --> 00:39:38.478
You know, either of those would be good and you know, when parents are dealing with it.00:39:38.478 --> 00:39:41.203
It, I'd argue for something very similar.00:39:41.413 --> 00:39:42.913
Oh, Johnny, we can get that book.00:39:42.913 --> 00:39:43.573
No, no problem.00:39:43.573 --> 00:39:46.453
But, you know, I think that's gonna be a book we're gonna have to read together.00:39:46.913 --> 00:39:50.213
Would you like one that you could, you know, read on your own?00:39:50.213 --> 00:39:53.328
Or I think you should get a second book that you could read on your own.00:39:53.548 --> 00:39:55.588
Let's see if we can find something like that.00:39:56.158 --> 00:40:00.358
But I wouldn't discourage the youngster from trying to take on the harder book and lot.00:40:01.293 --> 00:40:10.003
You know, I can remember when I was giving talks about this when the Common Core came on and a number of teachers would raise their hand and say, you know what you're talking about?00:40:10.273 --> 00:40:12.943
I, my kids often struggled with reading.00:40:13.413 --> 00:40:17.193
But the Harry Potter books, everybody had to read those.00:40:17.193 --> 00:40:20.943
And, you know, I had my lowest readers carrying those books around on the playground.00:40:20.943 --> 00:40:27.718
They were, you know, reading them and struggling with those books, but they wanted everybody to know they were reading it and they were part of the group.00:40:27.768 --> 00:40:31.068
And boy, I wouldn't ever discourage kids from trying to do that.00:40:31.068 --> 00:40:36.108
I tried to do that kinda stuff as a kid and sometimes didn't understand what I was reading.00:40:37.218 --> 00:40:48.158
Oh, well, but it was aspirational and I was trying, you know, trying things out and in fact, I kept doing that and it, it allowed me to read harder books over time.00:40:48.158 --> 00:40:59.373
And so I'd really I'd really discourage folks from telling kids for their independent reading, their leisure reading, that they have to read certain kinds of books or certain levels of books.00:40:59.373 --> 00:41:02.463
But I would give the kids some options and some support as well.00:41:03.688 --> 00:41:05.793
Erin Bailey: This is so refreshing to hear it.00:41:05.793 --> 00:41:07.083
It aligns very well.00:41:07.083 --> 00:41:16.263
With reading as fundamentals mission, because we're about choice and access, and when we host book celebration events, that's when we put out books for home ownership.00:41:16.443 --> 00:41:22.683
We specifically tell the librarian or educator, whoever's facilitating the event, do not level the books.00:41:22.843 --> 00:41:26.413
If you wanna organize the books in such a way, you can organize them at tab.00:41:26.633 --> 00:41:31.673
Tables around interest topics or genres for students, but do not level them.00:41:31.673 --> 00:41:38.123
Never say to a child, you can only get books from the green table 'cause that's your reading level, because it's about choice.00:41:38.123 --> 00:41:44.093
And I think some of the research in your book highlights that when you do self-select a book, you're more motivated to read it.00:41:44.093 --> 00:41:47.753
You're able to take on a more challenging text like your Harry Potter example.00:41:48.313 --> 00:41:54.643
Tim Shanahan: Studies back to the 1950s always showed that when kids were selecting the books.00:41:54.718 --> 00:41:59.338
They could read books that were harder than their instructional level or their independent level.00:41:59.398 --> 00:42:04.168
And so, you know, this is something we've actually known for a very long time.00:42:04.168 --> 00:42:09.628
And yet you do see people still putting limits on what they allow kids to read.00:42:09.628 --> 00:42:11.758
And it, boy, what a bad idea.00:42:12.898 --> 00:42:19.863
So I cheer for RIF fun on doing that and encouraging people to share books with kids in that way.00:42:20.533 --> 00:42:21.193
Erin Bailey: Thank you.00:42:21.653 --> 00:42:24.623
So the, a big question for you.00:42:24.623 --> 00:42:29.693
I mean, I knew when I picked up this book and read it, it was life changing to me.00:42:29.693 --> 00:42:33.893
As somebody who works in the field of literacy, it caused me to question.00:42:33.893 --> 00:42:41.423
Some of the practices that I did as a first grade teacher and some of the ways that I create content now it's this leveled reading.00:42:41.423 --> 00:42:42.743
It's a culture almost.00:42:42.743 --> 00:42:47.093
It's deeply embedded in curriculums, in assessments and teacher training.00:42:47.393 --> 00:42:54.593
What changes do you think policy makers, school level leaders need to prioritize to improve this?00:42:55.817 --> 00:42:56.207
Tim Shanahan: Yeah.00:42:56.207 --> 00:43:05.877
You know, I think you know, clearly just mandating this, which is what happened with Common Core States mandated this and then didn't do anything.00:43:05.877 --> 00:43:06.267
They didn't.00:43:06.782 --> 00:43:09.632
Invest very much in teacher education.00:43:09.632 --> 00:43:16.532
They didn't, so I would really suggest that the number one thing they've got to do is, you know, the books are there.00:43:16.532 --> 00:43:19.352
Now they, that isn't the hard part of it.00:43:19.382 --> 00:43:19.712
No.00:43:19.712 --> 00:43:22.292
They don't have to throw out the book rooms and so on.00:43:22.592 --> 00:43:30.212
But what they do need to do is they have to make sure that teachers, one, understand that this is holding kids back.00:43:30.822 --> 00:43:36.552
That somebody has to take the time to show them and explain to them why this is a problem.00:43:36.732 --> 00:43:47.292
And two, somebody has to take the time to provide the teacher development the professional learning that will allow them to see, well, what can you do?00:43:47.322 --> 00:43:55.272
You know, there's nothing more frustrating for a teacher than to see a youngster in their classroom struggling to read a book, you know?00:43:56.182 --> 00:43:58.972
Just can't, seemingly can't do it.00:43:59.002 --> 00:44:00.952
They don't know what to do with that.00:44:01.232 --> 00:44:04.592
And you're never gonna mandate somebody into knowing something.00:44:04.592 --> 00:44:08.372
You're gonna have to invest in making sure that those teachers.00:44:08.867 --> 00:44:18.647
Know what the alternatives are and it, and as your earlier question points out, and it's not just the reading teachers, it's what about the science teachers and the social studies teachers?00:44:18.647 --> 00:44:23.327
It's not just the second and third grade teachers, it's the teachers all the way up to 12th grade.00:44:23.667 --> 00:44:33.097
How do you work with a text that the students are gonna struggle with and to make that productive and to make the kids successful with that?00:44:33.602 --> 00:44:39.782
And so, you know, I honestly think this is one where the biggest changes have to be in teacher education.00:44:40.112 --> 00:44:49.072
So states making sure that the their professional development programs at the universities are addressing this issue.00:44:49.402 --> 00:44:54.052
School district, you know, the curriculum director, the head of professional development for a district.00:44:54.052 --> 00:45:01.237
Those folks need to you know, start thinking about, gee, you know, we've been doing a lot of phonic stuff.00:45:01.597 --> 00:45:03.757
This is really about comprehension.00:45:03.907 --> 00:45:14.167
How would we teach teachers to do the kinds of things that you know, to Tim Shanahan's talking about what's the guidance we can give around vocabulary?00:45:14.352 --> 00:45:16.992
What's the guidance we can give around building fluency?00:45:17.172 --> 00:45:20.622
What's the guidance we can give about dealing with complex sentences?00:45:20.622 --> 00:45:24.432
What's the guidance we can give in dealing with discourse structure and on?00:45:24.822 --> 00:45:28.722
Think of anything that can block your comprehension of a text.00:45:30.192 --> 00:45:35.772
How would you scaffold it without telling somebody what the text says without reading the text to them?00:45:36.162 --> 00:45:37.392
How could you.00:45:38.387 --> 00:45:42.707
What kind of guidance could you give that would allow a person to succeed with a text?00:45:42.707 --> 00:45:45.707
And I think you'd find there are a bunch of things we can do.00:45:45.857 --> 00:45:55.287
There's a lot of areas that have actually been researched and so that's why my book, there's a whole chapter on what do you do in terms of the words and the fluency.00:45:55.647 --> 00:45:59.187
There's another chapter, what do you do with all the language and the content stuff?00:45:59.217 --> 00:46:00.267
There's another chapter.00:46:00.447 --> 00:46:02.577
What do you do to make sure that it stays motivat?00:46:02.817 --> 00:46:05.187
Motivational kids prefer the harder text.00:46:05.892 --> 00:46:08.022
But they need to succeed with it.00:46:08.082 --> 00:46:10.812
And so teachers have to know how to make that successful.00:46:11.052 --> 00:46:14.912
And so the, you know, I put the, at least the bare bones of what's needed there.00:46:15.632 --> 00:46:18.212
Teachers need to see some of that stuff in action.00:46:18.212 --> 00:46:28.022
And I think that's really up to the, you know, the instructional leaders at the state level, at the district level, the school level and certainly at the universities.00:46:28.532 --> 00:46:31.622
That isn't happening to a sufficient extent right now.00:46:33.047 --> 00:46:34.517
Erin Bailey: Thank you Dr. Shannon.00:46:34.517 --> 00:46:44.777
I'm hopeful that it will, I see good momentum right now in the literacy landscape and a lot of policies being implemented, so hopefully this will happen.00:46:44.857 --> 00:46:49.597
I always end by asking my guest, what does reading inspire for you?00:46:50.613 --> 00:46:51.183
Tim Shanahan: Wow.00:46:51.303 --> 00:47:02.183
You know, I tend to, you know, when I'm reading for pleasure, I tend to read history or I tend to read, I read literature, but I read literature.00:47:02.248 --> 00:47:04.498
I don't tend to read the hot books right now.00:47:04.498 --> 00:47:09.688
I mean, I read some of that, but I tend to read more on what's considered the literary canon.00:47:10.088 --> 00:47:15.728
You know, I recently read Emily Wilson's Translation of The Odyssey.00:47:16.038 --> 00:47:20.148
I'm, right now I'm reading The Foresight Saga and the final book of that.00:47:20.568 --> 00:47:22.368
Well, that was published in 1927.00:47:22.368 --> 00:47:42.178
What do you know, I, you know, I. I guess what I'd say is that what reading inspires for me is I see myself connecting myself to the past, to the chain of humanity and the problems that we've faced and sometimes duct or failed to face.00:47:42.308 --> 00:47:57.173
I think there's something a lot to be learned from the challenges that humans have confronted in the past, both on a large level, like history tends to be, you know, nationally or, you know, those kinds of things.00:47:57.873 --> 00:48:04.413
But literature de deals with problems that are real in a personal level.00:48:04.663 --> 00:48:06.523
And you get to see.00:48:07.828 --> 00:48:18.963
You know, I wasn't long ago, I was reading a story, a Nathaniel Hawthorne story, probably written in the 1830s or forties, and it was about child molesting00:48:19.878 --> 00:48:33.643
And it was like, well, gee, we treat that, like, that's like a new issue that, you know, all the stuff on that every day you're reading about somebody has done some bad thing to a kid someplace, sometimes a teacher or somebody in the scout and you know, ooh.00:48:34.078 --> 00:48:36.238
Horrible stuff and you go, wait a minute.00:48:36.238 --> 00:48:37.403
That was 200 years ago.00:48:38.338 --> 00:48:41.908
And, you know, they, he was writing about that openly.00:48:42.418 --> 00:48:47.278
I can't believe it, that when I was a child, we didn't know anything about that.00:48:47.338 --> 00:48:55.753
And so I think there's a value to being able to connect yourself with that whole group of people who came before us.00:48:56.233 --> 00:48:58.063
There's much to learn from them.00:48:58.403 --> 00:49:01.073
I think we could do better if we knew more about that.00:49:01.073 --> 00:49:05.423
So that tends to be where my reading goes and it's.00:49:05.858 --> 00:49:07.568
There's some wonderful stuff out there,00:49:07.643 --> 00:49:08.273
Erin Bailey: Yes.00:49:08.333 --> 00:49:15.113
And the great thing is there, there keep, there's more and more, you know, every year more books are published.00:49:15.113 --> 00:49:19.248
You can read the hot and new or you can time travel and read the classics.00:49:19.823 --> 00:49:20.663
Tim Shanahan: Absolutely.00:49:20.663 --> 00:49:26.083
And I've got a daughter who's very literary, you know, she has a degree in English from Kenyan.00:49:26.083 --> 00:49:33.803
So she's, you know, so she gives me some of the more modern contemporary books, you know, that are on.00:49:34.398 --> 00:49:39.978
Science fiction or, you know, all these kinds of dystopian worlds that people are confronting.00:49:39.978 --> 00:49:43.758
So I get a little of that because if she gives it to me, I read it.00:49:45.408 --> 00:49:46.788
Fathers and daughters, you know.00:49:49.248 --> 00:49:57.343
But yeah, so I, you know, so I'm not completely bereft of modern and contemporary literature, but my preference tends to be.00:49:58.078 --> 00:50:09.948
These older pieces that have been around for a while and allow, like you say, time travel or you know, me to connect with a group of people I'd never be able to connect with otherwise.00:50:10.168 --> 00:50:10.408
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:50:10.778 --> 00:50:11.448
Connection.00:50:12.038 --> 00:50:13.608
Well, thank you Dr. Shannon.00:50:13.788 --> 00:50:17.463
It was wonderful to connect with you today and thanks for joining us.00:50:18.093 --> 00:50:18.603
Tim Shanahan: Thank you.00:50:18.828 --> 00:50:20.123
Please keep doing the work you guys do.
Did you enjoy this podcast episode?
Listen to inspiring conversations with Reading Is Fundamental and discover how we're championing children’s literacy across the country. Check out our other podcast episodes right here.