Memorable Lessons from Ordinary Moments with Matt Eicheldinger
In this special Teacher Appreciation Week episode, host Erin Bailey sits down with New York Times bestselling author and educator Matt Eicheldinger to talk about his personal journey from a kid who didn't love reading to a published author. Matt shares how a simple classroom activity called a 'story jar' unexpectedly launched his writing career, and offers practical, tried-and-true strategies for connecting with reluctant readers—from short chapters and well-placed cliffhangers to tracking down that one book that finally clicks for a child. He also gives listeners a glimpse into his fast-paced dystopian YA series When the Rain Came and hints at an exciting new graphic novel format set to release in 2029.
About Matt Eicheldinger:
Matt Eicheldinger is an American author, former middle school teacher, and social media personality. He is best known for his Matt Sprouts series of middle-grade novels and his memoir Sticky Notes: Memorable Lessons from Ordinary Moments. His debut novel became a The New York Times and USA Today bestseller in its first week of publication.
- Matt Eicheldinger
- Instagram and tiktok @matteicheldinger
- Facebook: @Matt Eicheldinger - Author
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This file was generated by Descript00:00:00.194 --> 00:00:03.034
Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading Is Fundamental.00:00:03.084 --> 00:00:05.064
I'm your host, Dr. Erin Bailey.00:00:05.484 --> 00:00:09.164
This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading.00:00:09.524 --> 00:00:19.824
In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question: What does reading inspire for you?00:00:20.394 --> 00:00:29.034
Through stories, research, and real-world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes, we explore what literacy looks like and why it matters.00:00:29.544 --> 00:00:35.144
Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here.00:00:35.404 --> 00:00:37.794
Be sure to subscribe to get the latest episode.00:00:38.034 --> 00:00:39.044
Let's get inspired.00:00:40.045 --> 00:00:49.235
Erin Bailey: We are celebrating Teacher Appreciation Week this week with a well-known teacher from social media and a New York Times bestseller, Matt Eichinger.00:00:49.475 --> 00:00:59.345
After reading Matt's book, Sticky Notes: Memorable Lessons from Ordinary Moments, the first thing I said to Matt when we met for the first time was, "Matt, you wrote the book that I always wanted to write."00:00:59.455 --> 00:01:00.685
But it's so great to have you.00:01:00.685 --> 00:01:01.915
Thanks for being here, Matt.00:01:02.465 --> 00:01:03.145
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah, absolutely.00:01:03.145 --> 00:01:15.105
I'm looking forward to the00:01:15.145 --> 00:01:21.165
Erin Bailey: did your own childhood experiences with reading and storytelling shape the way that you approach literacy?00:01:22.605 --> 00:01:23.575
Matt Eicheldinger: That's a really good question.00:01:23.605 --> 00:01:25.975
First of all, I was a reluctant reader.00:01:26.055 --> 00:01:33.845
So my parents were huge advocates for literature, but they just couldn't get me to sit down long enough to read a book that didn't have any pictures.00:01:33.845 --> 00:01:39.685
And, you know, at the time, graphic novels didn't even exist, which I tell kids during my author visits.00:01:39.685 --> 00:01:40.465
It, like, blows their mind.00:01:40.465 --> 00:01:50.635
But there was no graphic novels, so the only thing that I would read in my elementary school years, even up through middle school, besides the things that I was assigned for school, was Calvin and Hobbes.00:01:50.975 --> 00:01:52.615
I just devoured those books.00:01:52.615 --> 00:01:54.095
I stayed up late reading them each night.00:01:54.655 --> 00:01:58.185
And so I think it's 'cause I saw myself in that character, right?00:01:58.185 --> 00:02:01.035
Calvin's a very, like, adventurous young boy.00:02:01.035 --> 00:02:02.235
He's a little mischievous.00:02:02.235 --> 00:02:04.945
He has a large imagination, and I just saw myself in there.00:02:04.995 --> 00:02:12.425
And that's what I think it's, is cool about connecting with books is once you see yourself in a character, you kinda go all in.00:02:12.425 --> 00:02:15.845
And so my childhood was very much shaped by Calvin and Hobbes.00:02:16.085 --> 00:02:20.885
And then the next thing that I fell in love with was Harry Potter, 'cause that was the huge book of the '90s.00:02:21.175 --> 00:02:27.405
But since then I've kind of, you know, fallen in love with books in different ways as I became a teacher, and then clearly as an author as well.00:02:28.365 --> 00:02:38.055
Erin Bailey: It's funny that s- your students and students you go see at your author visits now are surprised that graphic novels weren't really a thing you know, back in the '90s.00:02:38.055 --> 00:02:45.105
But it's a- actually exciting to hear too that they're so prevalent now that it's surprising to students that they... there was a time when they weren't.00:02:45.755 --> 00:03:03.025
So I wanna talk about your transition from being a teacher to being an author, and I get asked this quite a bit actually, is that you know, teachers
are always like, "Well, I wanna write a children's book, but I don't know where to start." And what I always say, you know, I'm a literacy expert.00:03:03.025 --> 00:03:07.505
There is a difference between children's literacy and children's literature.00:03:07.505 --> 00:03:09.105
It's... They're two very different worlds.00:03:09.105 --> 00:03:12.935
So how did you find this pathway?00:03:12.985 --> 00:03:19.245
What was the classroom experience that influenced you to write a book, and then what was your pathway to that?00:03:20.350 --> 00:03:20.810
Matt Eicheldinger: Sure.00:03:20.990 --> 00:03:23.830
It started when I was 21 when I got my first teaching job.00:03:23.910 --> 00:03:29.470
And when I got my first job, I noticed really quickly all of my colleagues were, like, known for something.00:03:29.630 --> 00:03:36.520
Like, they all had a thing, like the dancing teacher or the singing teacher, and I was just trying to, like, think what will be my thing someday?00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:37.910
What will I be known for?00:03:37.910 --> 00:03:45.160
And what will be maybe, like, the carrot on the end of the stick that I can dangle for kids to get them to know me better, but also entertain them and I can get to know them?00:03:45.160 --> 00:03:49.360
And I've just always been kind of a storyteller at heart, nothing really formal.00:03:49.740 --> 00:03:54.160
So I started sharing stories from my childhood, and kids really latched onto it.00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:57.620
And I developed something in my classroom called the story jar.00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:08.210
It was just, like, filled with all these slips of paper from my childhood, and if we finished a task early, I would take out a sheet of paper, and we would read the title, and then I would tell this usually embarrassing story.00:04:08.260 --> 00:04:10.710
And my kids encouraged me, like, "You should write all these down.00:04:10.710 --> 00:04:14.010
You should write them down and make a book." And so I was like, "Well, may- yeah, that sounds kind of cool.00:04:14.010 --> 00:04:25.210
Maybe I will." And so went home and just started typing these mini stories and then for some reason decided to connect them with a common narrative, and I printed it out, three-hole punched it, and just put it in my classroom.00:04:25.210 --> 00:04:29.690
And one day I had a student who said they weren't gonna read, and, like, declared it.00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:31.680
And I had never experienced that as a teacher.00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.340
Like, I didn't have any tools for that.00:04:33.340 --> 00:04:34.140
Like, what do you do?00:04:34.140 --> 00:04:41.240
And so I said, "Do you like those silly stories that I tell?" And he's like, "Yeah, I do." And so I slid him that book, and he loved it.00:04:41.410 --> 00:04:47.170
And then he started passing it around to his friends, and that was the time I realized, like, oh maybe my stories have a place in the world.00:04:47.780 --> 00:04:52.390
And so I spent the next 15 years trying to get that single story in a classroom.00:04:52.440 --> 00:04:59.330
But that's really what prompted me to jump from teacher to author is it was all based on the needs of my students.00:04:59.330 --> 00:05:06.190
In fact, most of the books that I've put out and the first, like, five books that I put out all stem from my classroom experience, which is kind of cool.00:05:07.020 --> 00:05:11.670
Erin Bailey: I was gonna ask you too if the Matt in your stories was inspired by your own childhood.00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:12.980
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah.00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:16.890
In fact, so the first book is called Matt Sprouts and the Curse of Ten Broken Toes.00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:18.330
Matt Sprouts is me.00:05:18.330 --> 00:05:19.760
It's just Matt Eicholdinger.00:05:19.760 --> 00:05:24.130
By Matt Eicholdinger is kind of a mouthful, so, so I changed the name.00:05:24.350 --> 00:05:25.500
But that story is true.00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:29.290
Like, I have broken all 10 of my toes in some very silly ways in hindsight.00:05:29.290 --> 00:05:30.200
They hurt at the time.00:05:30.690 --> 00:05:37.410
But then, like, you know, the illustrated poetry book that I put out for kids, I wrote that because we didn't have any poetry curriculum.00:05:37.410 --> 00:05:40.540
So year after year, I was just adding these poems to entertain kids.00:05:40.540 --> 00:05:49.680
And so I love that the things that I've put forth into the world so far can directly be tied to the need that I had in my classroom at the time.00:05:50.922 --> 00:05:51.822
Erin Bailey: Yeah I love that.00:05:51.822 --> 00:06:03.022
And I think, you know, teachers who are listening, if you can walk away with one thing, the story jar, what a great motivator and what a great way to affirm students that their own stories matter.00:06:03.022 --> 00:06:10.962
And the fact that your first book wasn't a polished publish- published book, but something that you wrote and just put into your classroom.00:06:10.962 --> 00:06:25.572
I'm always encouraging teachers to do what I call class books, which is when you take students' writing and you actually put it in your classroom library and allow that to be a book that gets checked out and taken home the same way you would treat any book.00:06:26.492 --> 00:06:26.592
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah.00:06:26.592 --> 00:06:27.242
Yeah, that's brilliant.00:06:27.242 --> 00:06:28.952
Our media center specialist did that too.00:06:28.952 --> 00:06:30.282
She would pool together kids.00:06:30.282 --> 00:06:31.692
I think we had a club at the time.00:06:32.162 --> 00:06:36.642
But something our language arts department too, is we would do something called, like, beautiful sentences.00:06:36.982 --> 00:06:49.102
So in every kid's work, we would find one sentence that we would call a beautiful sentence, and we would just hang them all up over our classroom so that everyone felt like there was something, you know, for lack of a better term, worthy to put up in the room.00:06:49.102 --> 00:06:54.222
Like, "Oh yeah, that was mine," 'cause there's, like, great ownership in showcasing your writing.00:06:54.222 --> 00:06:55.362
Kids really enjoy that.00:06:56.112 --> 00:06:56.882
Erin Bailey: absolutely.00:06:56.882 --> 00:07:00.162
So you've described yourself as a reluctant reader.00:07:00.162 --> 00:07:14.732
When I was a reading specialist, I always used to say, "Reluctant readers are my favorite kind of readers." So I'm sure everyone wants to hear why is it that your books are so engaging for students who may not naturally love reading?00:07:14.732 --> 00:07:21.982
What is it that they're, those students are looking for, and how can educators and parents help them overcome their reluctance?00:07:23.322 --> 00:07:24.172
Matt Eicheldinger: It's a great question.00:07:24.252 --> 00:07:27.392
I would say that I didn't do anything purposefully.00:07:27.462 --> 00:07:37.192
Like, I didn't sit down and think, "This is what reluctant readers need." I just thought about what I needed when I was that age, and what I needed at that age is I needed things that moved really quickly.00:07:37.422 --> 00:07:39.542
Like, I wanna feel like I'm going through the book.00:07:39.542 --> 00:07:42.162
So in order to do that, I want the chapters to be short.00:07:42.592 --> 00:07:49.872
So most my chapters in my middle grade novels are, like, eight pages, and they also have spot art, not nearly as much as a graphic novel.00:07:49.872 --> 00:07:51.402
It's, like, maybe one every three pages.00:07:51.402 --> 00:07:56.382
But kids feel like they're moving through it, and each chapter ends with more or less a cliffhanger.00:07:56.502 --> 00:07:59.112
So those are two things that's like incentive to read forward.00:07:59.112 --> 00:08:08.442
But I think at the end of the day, what makes kids really interested in my, you know, middle grade novels especially, is that they are... they're timeless.00:08:08.522 --> 00:08:13.302
There's nothing in my books that 20 years from now I think kids would read and be like, "Oh, that doesn't exist anymore."00:08:13.302 --> 00:08:15.072
Like, I don't include any technology.00:08:15.072 --> 00:08:26.632
I just focus really on what the kids are facing at the time in the book and that's just adventurous spirit, like kids getting into a little bit of trouble, trying to figure out things on their own, learning from their mistakes.00:08:26.922 --> 00:08:28.292
Every kid can relate to that.00:08:28.322 --> 00:08:38.802
And so when you embed that in a silly narrative like broken toes or a goat that you have to babysit or these weird collectibles that a kid has to find, everyone can relate to that in some way.00:08:39.982 --> 00:08:40.632
Erin Bailey: That's great.00:08:40.632 --> 00:08:42.452
Yeah the common experiences.00:08:42.582 --> 00:08:46.392
And I didn't realize that about your books, that you don't include technology in it.00:08:46.392 --> 00:08:50.112
That's such an interesting... That is a great way to keep things timeless.00:08:50.712 --> 00:08:51.042
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah.00:08:51.332 --> 00:08:56.522
The only time I had to do it was I think in the third book where characters were, they had to call each other.00:08:56.942 --> 00:09:00.392
And so, but I have one character on a cellphone and another on a landline.00:09:00.392 --> 00:09:03.892
So even then you kind of are like, you're not sure what year this is taking00:09:04.112 --> 00:09:04.512
Erin Bailey: yeah.00:09:04.872 --> 00:09:18.722
You know, I've noticed that I love to watch movies and TV, and I've noticed it's popular that a lot of films are set in the '80s and '90s, and I was asking myself, "Why is that?" And one reason, I think we're all just nostalgic for the '80s and '90s.00:09:18.722 --> 00:09:19.812
We like the fashion, everything.00:09:20.032 --> 00:09:29.402
But I also think a big part of it is because when I watch these shows, the plots could often be solved by technology that we have today.00:09:29.562 --> 00:09:29.852
Matt Eicheldinger: so true.00:09:29.882 --> 00:09:30.052
Yeah.00:09:30.382 --> 00:09:31.862
Yeah, I00:09:31.942 --> 00:09:38.032
Erin Bailey: are lost, and they can't find each other, and they can't communicate with each other, and all of these things we can solve for today.00:09:38.032 --> 00:09:41.482
So it certainly adds for an interesting plot point as well.00:09:42.352 --> 00:09:49.752
Matt Eicheldinger: another thing too that you talking about that, another way that I think the books grab kids is the kids are on their own a lot.00:09:50.172 --> 00:09:58.642
And, you know, today's parenting style for the most part is kids being more at home, parents coordinating play dates or making sure they know where their kid is.00:09:58.642 --> 00:10:05.632
But where I grew up, it was very common for you just to leave, and parents would be like, "All right, we'll see you at some point."00:10:06.042 --> 00:10:09.682
And I think that's very curious for kids to think about.00:10:09.922 --> 00:10:17.822
Like, I even remember shortly after the pandemic, or maybe it was during, we were telling our own children, "Hey, go on a bike ride." And they're like where?" And I'm like, "Wherever you want.00:10:18.162 --> 00:10:20.292
Just kind of give us a general idea of where you wanna go."00:10:20.292 --> 00:10:22.762
And they thought that was so cool just to leave home.00:10:22.762 --> 00:10:27.132
And so I think that's another aspect that really pulls kids in, being off on their own.00:10:27.842 --> 00:10:30.552
Erin Bailey: probably why... You mentioned Harry Potter earlier.00:10:30.552 --> 00:10:45.572
It's probably another reason why, like, that kind of story is popular, the boarding school type of setting, because, you know, children have a lot of autonomy and freedom and independent time there, and you can go on some adventures that way.00:10:46.212 --> 00:10:48.272
Matt Eicheldinger: That's a good point, yeah, besides casting spells,00:10:48.907 --> 00:10:49.077
Erin Bailey: Yes.00:10:49.112 --> 00:10:49.902
Matt Eicheldinger: which is pretty cool.00:10:50.227 --> 00:10:58.637
Erin Bailey: So I wanna s- hear about the connection between storytelling, like you shared about the storytelling jar, and then reading.00:10:58.637 --> 00:11:11.147
Like, are... Do you ever have students who say, like, "I really like your stories. I like listening to stories, but I'm not so much into reading." How do you stretch that love of stories into love of reading and books?00:11:12.052 --> 00:11:19.057
Matt Eicheldinger: Well, I'll first start by saying, like, one of the best people I ever paired up with was our media center specialist Right?00:11:19.267 --> 00:11:25.067
Because I can only read so much, and I only have so much bandwidth to suggest books and stories for kids.00:11:25.407 --> 00:11:34.887
So one of the first things I talk to kids who are struggling to find a book or reluctant to read is I say, "Hey, you-- there's a story out there that's gonna grab your attention.00:11:35.017 --> 00:11:46.657
There will be." I'm all about kids not finishing a book. If they're reading a chapter trying to get into it and they just don't like it, I'm like let's go find you a new one because I really want you to go all in." And it only takes one book.00:11:46.657 --> 00:11:51.017
I had an author tell me that every book is someone's favorite book, right?00:11:51.417 --> 00:11:53.757
And so it's our job to help them discover it.00:11:53.757 --> 00:12:00.817
And our librarian at the time, our media center specialist had a game called Lost and Found, and she said, "Every book is lost until it finds you."00:12:01.077 --> 00:12:04.267
Erin Bailey: Mm-hmm.00:12:04.757 --> 00:12:10.217
Matt Eicheldinger: So we spent a lot of time exposing kids to as many books as possible.00:12:10.817 --> 00:12:12.367
There's so many strategies to do that.00:12:12.427 --> 00:12:18.987
One of my favorites too is not just looking at books, but also short stories because they're so quickly digestible.00:12:19.417 --> 00:12:21.547
And so we would pull all these short stories.00:12:21.547 --> 00:12:28.447
We would have, like, 60, and kids got to start reading those and kind of get a better idea of like, "Oh, what-- Do I like more mystery?00:12:28.447 --> 00:12:29.847
Do I like murder?00:12:29.847 --> 00:12:39.717
Do I..." You know, like, "Do-- Am I a fan of, you know, being off on your own?" Whatever it may be, we really wanna build a base for kids to understand where to go to first when they're looking for a book.00:12:40.537 --> 00:12:44.137
Erin Bailey: That's a great tip for teachers and librarians as, and parents as well.00:12:44.137 --> 00:12:50.887
You know, start with short stories to find out what genre you're most interested in, and then there will be a book about that.00:12:50.887 --> 00:12:58.627
And then I would also suggest if you can find the interest and then find a great series, that's a great way to hook kids.00:12:58.627 --> 00:13:03.367
Because once they've read number one book of Harry Potter, you have to read the rest of them.00:13:04.127 --> 00:13:04.507
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah.00:13:04.827 --> 00:13:08.087
Something else that we did in our school, and the building that I taught in was massive.00:13:08.087 --> 00:13:10.297
It had almost 3,000 middle school students, right?00:13:10.297 --> 00:13:11.127
That's a lot of kids.00:13:11.627 --> 00:13:29.787
And so there was about, you know, more or less 1,000 sixth grade students, and what we would do is if a kid brought a book back to the library that they had read, they
could get what's called a locker tag, which would be a printout cover of that book that they would then laminate on the front of their locker with a little book review.00:13:30.197 --> 00:13:50.017
And so kids could, as they walked through the hall, they would be exposed to all these books and reviews, and they could see, "Oh, my friend read that. Maybe I'll like
that too." And that took a lot of time from our media center specialist but it w- it was a great way to get kids exposed to more books with suggestions from their peers.00:13:50.882 --> 00:13:52.342
Erin Bailey: Okay, I have a question about that.00:13:52.342 --> 00:13:58.462
Were the reviews always positive, or is there a benefit to negative reviews?00:13:58.462 --> 00:13:59.862
'Cause I've had this conversation.00:13:59.862 --> 00:14:07.112
I haven't seen a lot of research on it, but I think another engagement strategy is tell me why you hated the book.00:14:08.107 --> 00:14:08.597
Matt Eicheldinger: Yes.00:14:08.597 --> 00:14:12.372
So, if I'm remembering this correctly, the little Tag underneath the book.00:14:12.372 --> 00:14:20.122
It was very short, and it just had-- I don't even think we called it pro and con, but it was basically like what's one thing you liked about it and one thing you didn't.00:14:20.382 --> 00:14:25.972
So that way there's not like this overarching view of like this is my favorite book and not really have any substance.00:14:26.262 --> 00:14:29.542
But I would be curious to know about what you just said for research.00:14:29.542 --> 00:14:30.412
That'd be interesting.00:14:30.532 --> 00:14:31.102
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:14:31.132 --> 00:14:34.402
Yeah, just, like, 'cause reading is reading, right?00:14:34.402 --> 00:14:44.622
And if you go into something knowing, like, "Well, a lot of people hated this book. I'm gonna read it to find out, like, why they hated it," and, you know, having a conversation around it.00:14:44.622 --> 00:14:50.102
Because there's more to books than just the author and the reader, right?00:14:50.102 --> 00:14:57.642
There's also the social environment that they create, and talking about a bad book can create a... You know, I'm... Air quotes bad.00:14:57.642 --> 00:14:58.902
Of course, there's no bad books.00:14:58.902 --> 00:15:05.442
But talking about a book that a lot of your friends didn't like, that's a way to engage with reading as well.00:15:06.422 --> 00:15:07.212
Matt Eicheldinger: that reminds me.00:15:07.212 --> 00:15:12.172
We used to read a common novel, and our whole language arts department really didn't like the ending.00:15:12.552 --> 00:15:33.552
Like we just felt it was so unjust, and so one of the ways we would hook kids is we would say, "The ending's gonna frustrate. Oh, you're gonna be so frustrated." And then they wanna
know, and so, you know, you find little kernels like that in, in all aspects of reading is how can I get a kid, whether it's, you know, positive or good review, how can I get them hooked?00:15:34.232 --> 00:15:39.022
It's almost like sometimes I feel like in the classroom I was more of like in sales, you know?00:15:39.262 --> 00:15:44.662
Like I am constantly in sales of trying to get kids to buy in, and there are so many different ways to do that.00:15:45.712 --> 00:15:46.352
Erin Bailey: That's great.00:15:46.392 --> 00:15:47.042
I love that.00:15:47.042 --> 00:15:53.022
All the teachers are just really sales, like selling learning, selling, selling adventure.00:15:53.482 --> 00:15:53.942
Matt Eicheldinger: Yes.00:15:54.162 --> 00:15:54.362
Yeah.00:15:54.852 --> 00:16:01.022
Erin Bailey: So I know you also talk a lot about how stories can build... We talked about social connection, but also empathy.00:16:01.072 --> 00:16:12.002
Can you think about h- and share how emotional engagement is so critical when developing strong readers, you know, students who wanna read even outside of school?00:16:12.852 --> 00:16:13.632
Matt Eicheldinger: absolutely.00:16:13.732 --> 00:16:15.012
I always start with this quote.00:16:15.012 --> 00:16:18.242
It's not my quote, it's Jason Reynolds' quote, phenomenal author.00:16:18.242 --> 00:16:19.262
I'll see if I get it right.00:16:19.332 --> 00:16:23.512
I think he said that stories are empathy baking machines.00:16:24.202 --> 00:16:25.952
And so-- Isn't that a great quote?00:16:25.982 --> 00:16:27.112
If I quoted it right.00:16:27.902 --> 00:16:33.992
And basically what that means is, you know, when you are reading a story, your brain is constantly trying to make a connection, right?00:16:34.272 --> 00:16:36.142
Am I connecting to the main character?00:16:36.392 --> 00:16:41.992
But you're also trying to figure out who in the story is like people I know, right?00:16:41.992 --> 00:16:46.012
You're just constantly trying to parallel yourself with whatever's happening.00:16:46.012 --> 00:16:52.852
So when I think of empathy in books it's really about trying to see someone you care about somewhere in that novel.00:16:52.852 --> 00:16:58.127
And so- I think a huge aspect of emotional learning while reading is pausing.00:16:58.517 --> 00:17:01.287
You really need to pause and give kids time to reflect.00:17:01.727 --> 00:17:11.467
I also really like the strategy of signposts, which I think a lot of educators know about, which is priming kids to look for certain things, which may or may not be in that reading.00:17:11.467 --> 00:17:20.467
Like, "Hey, in this next chapter, I really want you to look for something that's text to world, something in this book that you can connect to the world that you live in," or text to self.00:17:20.467 --> 00:17:23.677
"Is there something in here that just connected with you?" Or text to text.00:17:23.677 --> 00:17:28.307
"Is there something in this chapter that you saw in a different book that you read?"00:17:28.677 --> 00:17:33.737
But that really allows kids to get in the brain space of thinking outside of just what's happening in that book.00:17:34.252 --> 00:17:34.652
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:17:34.912 --> 00:17:44.702
I really appreciate you s- discussing signposting and breaking it down for teachers because I don't think we do that enough.00:17:44.742 --> 00:17:47.252
We think that we're giving away something when we do it.00:17:47.252 --> 00:17:54.912
And I remember when I was in high school, I had a horrible time in a lot of my English classes, and that, a- and that's nothing against the teachers.00:17:54.912 --> 00:17:57.032
I went to a wonderful school with great teachers.00:17:57.032 --> 00:18:02.082
But there was this idea that you need to read books and look for symbolism.00:18:02.442 --> 00:18:09.372
And there's symbolism in these books and you need to find it, but there wasn't a signpost of what the symbols might be.00:18:09.532 --> 00:18:14.152
So it was almost like you're on a treasure hunt, but you don't even know what the treasure is.00:18:14.492 --> 00:18:21.162
And then when I went to college, I'll never forget, I had a teacher who ... a professor who explained it so much better.00:18:21.432 --> 00:18:24.892
I think, I believe the book was The Things We Carried, which I can link for everyone below.00:18:25.312 --> 00:18:32.502
And she said, "Look out for butterflies. You're gonna find them throughout the chapter. And as you're seeing butterflies, like, think about what that means."00:18:32.892 --> 00:18:44.662
Then it was like a true treasure hunt because I knew I was looking for butterflies, but I was going to discover or make meaning with that symbol rather than kind of like in the dark looking for something.00:18:45.027 --> 00:18:48.207
Matt Eicheldinger: I mean, all that teacher did was remove the barrier for you, right?00:18:48.457 --> 00:18:52.527
And those are so, so many easy things that you can tier for different levels of learning, right?00:18:52.527 --> 00:19:06.327
So if I want kids to look for certain symbolism, I might say like, "Hey, there's some strong symbolism on page 61," but it also occurs in other places, so that way I'm at least giving kids one spot to look for while slowly releasing it over time.00:19:06.547 --> 00:19:15.797
I also think another question that kids really liked because it didn't have really an answer was when I asked their thoughts about a certain character or a certain scene.00:19:16.427 --> 00:19:17.927
Like, "Did-- what did you think about the scene?00:19:17.927 --> 00:19:21.977
Did it-- how did it make you feel?" And I would always start by saying, "There's not a right or wrong answer."00:19:22.347 --> 00:19:25.402
I'm like, "All I want you to do is defend- your opinion.00:19:25.912 --> 00:19:33.722
And once kids know that like, "Oh, my answer can be different than somebody else's, all I have to do is back it up," there's some great discussions that can take place.00:19:33.722 --> 00:19:41.402
I loved it when we would discuss, like, the actions of a character and whether or not people agreed with that, 'cause then inevitably someone would reference something from their own life.00:19:41.402 --> 00:19:48.592
"Well, no, if that character does this, that's like when my mom does this, and that never..." So like you really start to pull the strings and unravel a little bit.00:19:49.222 --> 00:19:49.882
Erin Bailey: I love that.00:19:49.882 --> 00:19:51.432
There's no wrong answer.00:19:51.432 --> 00:19:54.922
All you have to do is back it up and make a compelling argument, right?00:19:54.922 --> 00:20:00.192
Which is really what, if you think about literacy standards, that's what they're asking you to do.00:20:00.242 --> 00:20:00.562
Matt Eicheldinger: Yes.00:20:01.172 --> 00:20:03.392
Yeah, and let's, you know, I would tell parents that too.00:20:03.392 --> 00:20:16.762
They would... You know, some parents really do look at the standards, and they would say like, "This standard's the same as last year and the same as
the year before." I was like, "Yeah, but the text complexity is changing." So yeah, we're still talking about symbolism, but this book is pretty dense.00:20:17.542 --> 00:20:20.482
And the symbolism's a little bit harder to find on your own maybe.00:20:20.862 --> 00:20:22.002
But yeah, those are some good points.00:20:22.682 --> 00:20:28.842
Erin Bailey: Those are some powerful parents that come to you and no- notice the difference between standards from year to year.00:20:29.422 --> 00:20:30.002
Matt Eicheldinger: Yes.00:20:30.362 --> 00:20:30.592
Okay.00:20:31.182 --> 00:20:35.482
Erin Bailey: So I wanna think about, with you, the future of literacy.00:20:35.482 --> 00:20:40.192
We barely touched on this, but social media, shorter attention spans.00:20:40.392 --> 00:20:44.312
What do you think is the role of books in, and deep reading?00:20:44.602 --> 00:20:48.722
How is it evolving, and what gives you hope for the future of literacy?00:20:50.562 --> 00:20:51.372
Matt Eicheldinger: I'll start by saying this.00:20:51.372 --> 00:20:56.582
I've traveled more in the last two years than I have in my entire life, right?00:20:56.642 --> 00:21:05.942
And so it's been the best professional development I've ever gotten, 'cause I get to go into all these schools and see how things are working across the country, and I'm very encouraged.00:21:06.002 --> 00:21:11.362
I think something that's coming for both adults and kids, I think people really wanna slow down.00:21:11.932 --> 00:21:13.832
I think the world feels very fast.00:21:14.292 --> 00:21:22.662
I think, you know, with social media, there's those quick hits of endorphins that you get from watching a video, but I think those are quick, right?00:21:22.662 --> 00:21:34.512
I think what people are understanding is they can raise the whole bar of how they feel when they slow down, and those valleys and high points aren't nearly as peaky, if that's a word.00:21:34.872 --> 00:21:35.142
You know?00:21:35.192 --> 00:21:40.792
And so when it comes to reading, I think kids really wanna immerse themselves in something that is slow.00:21:41.332 --> 00:21:44.412
How that looks in books I'm not quite sure.00:21:44.532 --> 00:21:45.782
I'm trying something new.00:21:45.782 --> 00:21:48.382
I'm trying a new form of graphic novel.00:21:48.412 --> 00:21:50.272
I think I may have invented a new form.00:21:50.472 --> 00:21:50.972
We'll see.00:21:50.972 --> 00:21:53.602
The book comes out in 2029, so we all have to00:21:53.882 --> 00:21:55.772
Erin Bailey: Wow, what a cliffhanger.00:21:57.022 --> 00:21:58.902
Matt Eicheldinger: I can tell you basically how it works though.00:21:59.182 --> 00:22:04.342
So what I did was I thought of the original Mario.00:22:04.522 --> 00:22:05.622
You remember original Mario?00:22:06.072 --> 00:22:10.952
And as your character moves, when it gets towards the end of the screen, the whole screen shifts00:22:11.122 --> 00:22:11.652
Erin Bailey: Mm-hmm.00:22:12.002 --> 00:22:12.222
Matt Eicheldinger: Right?00:22:12.222 --> 00:22:12.662
Think about that.00:22:12.662 --> 00:22:15.022
So you're moving left to right in a level.00:22:15.572 --> 00:22:22.022
I wrote a book like that, and so as the character moves left to right and you turn the page, the level just continues.00:22:22.502 --> 00:22:26.562
And so within that, the characters are also talking to the narrator.00:22:26.822 --> 00:22:31.682
And so I think what I'm-- what I've done is I've slowed down the graphic novel, if that makes sense.00:22:31.682 --> 00:22:36.082
Not to say that, like, the graphic novel in its form right now is negative at all.00:22:36.542 --> 00:22:47.622
I just think it, it might start to help us move back to a format where kids can have some rigor in when they're reading, because a lot of kids check out when there's books with no pictures.00:22:47.622 --> 00:22:49.162
They don't have the stimulus.00:22:49.162 --> 00:22:51.592
But I think we're starting to move back towards that.00:22:52.222 --> 00:23:02.332
Erin Bailey: I c- you're gonna have to send me that when it comes out, 'cause I love I love graphic novels, as I've shared many times on the podcast before.00:23:02.332 --> 00:23:16.102
And I'm wondering, too, what kind of... You know, I've spoken with others on the podcast about the level of inferencing that goes into reading graphic novels, and how between the frames, that's where inferencing happens, you know?00:23:16.102 --> 00:23:22.152
So I wonder with your kind of shifting frames, what changes for students' inferencing.00:23:22.772 --> 00:23:22.872
'Cause00:23:23.372 --> 00:23:25.022
Matt Eicheldinger: Ooh, that's a really good question.00:23:25.232 --> 00:23:29.092
I haven't thought about the inferen- inferencing level of the way I've formatted this book.00:23:29.632 --> 00:23:29.712
I00:23:29.812 --> 00:23:31.412
Erin Bailey: the time is continuous.00:23:31.412 --> 00:23:34.622
You don't have to assume a break in time, right?00:23:35.212 --> 00:23:35.582
Matt Eicheldinger: Correct.00:23:35.582 --> 00:23:36.592
There's no break in time.00:23:36.592 --> 00:23:37.512
It's continuous.00:23:37.752 --> 00:23:44.012
The inferencing would come from even though the level's the same, I think just the plot alone is you still don't know what's gonna happen next.00:23:44.012 --> 00:23:49.222
Like, you don't know what, once you change the s- the page, what the level will look like as it continues.00:23:49.552 --> 00:23:55.472
So there's still some of that, especially with the relationship that I build between the reader talking to the character.00:23:55.772 --> 00:23:58.262
I think that'll help with some inferencing as well, but we'll see.00:23:58.552 --> 00:23:59.142
Erin Bailey: that's great.00:23:59.302 --> 00:24:00.942
I love the slow down part, too.00:24:00.942 --> 00:24:06.962
Do you think it's... Is it us as adults who wanna slow down, or do children wanna slow down, too?00:24:06.962 --> 00:24:09.972
Do they notice the pace of the world?00:24:11.022 --> 00:24:11.752
Matt Eicheldinger: I think so.00:24:12.312 --> 00:24:27.092
I mean, if you look, too, there's a lot of parenting groups right now who are, you know, not allowing smartphones in their house, or there's districts now that are putting caps on when kids can have one-to-one devices in the classroom, right?00:24:27.152 --> 00:24:30.302
But something I think is unique is kids are like water.00:24:30.302 --> 00:24:33.362
They'll adapt to whatever space they're given.00:24:34.122 --> 00:24:37.882
when you as the teacher slow down, I think kids really want to emulate that.00:24:37.882 --> 00:24:43.862
When you're relaxed, your kids are relaxed, and I think that can happen with reading as well.00:24:44.102 --> 00:24:48.602
I, I-- there is pressure as a classroom teacher to move quickly to get through your curriculum.00:24:49.622 --> 00:24:53.722
However, I always found that when I was relaxed We moved faster.00:24:54.312 --> 00:24:54.782
Does that make00:24:55.197 --> 00:24:55.387
Erin Bailey: It00:24:55.472 --> 00:24:59.742
Matt Eicheldinger: When I wasn't thinking-- It took me years to not compare myself to my colleagues.00:25:00.152 --> 00:25:07.852
If my colleague was, like, two and a half lessons ahead and I was dragging behind, I always felt like I wasn't an adequate teacher or I was doing something wrong.00:25:08.422 --> 00:25:21.332
But our test scores always ended up being fairly similar, and so there's a lot of different ways to approach education and that's something I had to tell myself for a long time, is my way is not bad or worse than anyone else's, it's just different.00:25:21.382 --> 00:25:23.922
And I think kids are ready to relax a little bit.00:25:24.557 --> 00:25:32.517
Erin Bailey: And I think it's good for students too to have teachers with differing teaching styles and personality styles.00:25:32.517 --> 00:25:42.657
I mean, they're... You're not going to be around the same type of person every year for your entire life, so students, y- like you said, I like the water analogy.00:25:42.657 --> 00:25:48.177
They will adapt, so it's okay if they're in different, in classroom environments too.00:25:49.382 --> 00:25:59.582
Matt Eicheldinger: I used to love-- Our, our principal would shake up our teams fairly often, and I really think he did a nice job of getting a good mix of personalities for the kids.00:25:59.912 --> 00:26:02.062
You know, kids enjoyed having me as a teacher.00:26:02.102 --> 00:26:08.202
I don't brag about that, but I was, I think I was a well-liked teacher but you don't need four of me on a team, right?00:26:08.592 --> 00:26:10.662
My bouncy persona might not be for you.00:26:10.662 --> 00:26:17.932
You might like a teacher who's much more regimented, much more predictable in how their classes run and I think that's great.00:26:17.932 --> 00:26:24.122
And just like you said, kids have to navigate the big world, and that's what we're preparing them for, so we need to prepare them for all different personalities.00:26:24.807 --> 00:26:25.927
Erin Bailey: Yeah, absolutely.00:26:26.887 --> 00:26:32.957
So I wanna ask you about one more of your books, and that is your dystopian books.00:26:32.957 --> 00:26:35.447
I like, I also love dystopian as a genre.00:26:35.717 --> 00:26:42.977
Can you tell us a little bit about... So you talked about, you know, having a picture every few pages to increase the pace.00:26:42.977 --> 00:26:47.187
Like, what is unique about your dystopian books that you have now?00:26:48.252 --> 00:26:52.672
Matt Eicheldinger: Oh man, I like this question 'cause I haven't had to, I haven't talked about it in this capacity very much.00:26:52.672 --> 00:26:54.662
It's just been me saying what's it about.00:26:54.942 --> 00:26:56.302
So this book has no pictures.00:26:56.602 --> 00:27:01.442
I originally wrote it to be middle grade, and then it was-- we bumped it up to young adult.00:27:01.832 --> 00:27:07.132
And I think anyone who reads, who has read my other work and read this book, they'd be like, "This is Matt."00:27:07.432 --> 00:27:09.322
Like, the sounds, this is like the pacing.00:27:09.862 --> 00:27:11.382
The chapters are still short.00:27:11.842 --> 00:27:12.732
It's intense.00:27:12.762 --> 00:27:18.862
So I feel like many dystopian novels take place over a long period of time, right?00:27:18.862 --> 00:27:24.732
So, like, when you're dropped into this new dystopian world, you might be learning about the whole world and how it functions.00:27:25.072 --> 00:27:32.892
With my series, which the first book is "When the Rain Came," it's less than 10 days that you're in this- in the story.00:27:33.272 --> 00:27:39.632
And then the second book is a quick jump forward by a few more weeks, but that's even less time.00:27:39.632 --> 00:27:41.352
You're in that story for only eight days.00:27:41.732 --> 00:27:47.422
And because of that I have to move the plot really quickly because you don't want characters just, like, talking all the time.00:27:47.522 --> 00:27:49.672
So it's a high in- intense book.00:27:49.672 --> 00:28:03.212
It's not, you know, overly violent, but it moves with such intensity in which such, like, dire situations that I think kids really will latch on, and adults to being able to relate to these scenarios, I hope.00:28:03.697 --> 00:28:12.487
Erin Bailey: And what-- the way you're describing it, so you're really world-building and building a plot all within the span of 10 days, so it is very fast-paced.00:28:13.382 --> 00:28:22.132
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah, my editor said you are writing like you are in a first-person video game exploring their world for the first time." And that was, like, a compliment. I was like, "Good.00:28:22.132 --> 00:28:30.892
That's what I want." I want kids to be, and adults, to be plucked right into the, to the novel, and I want them to be figuring out the situation as the character's doing it.00:28:31.362 --> 00:28:42.552
An example of where that would be different is, like, The Hunger Games, you're plucked right into the story, and you very quickly learn about what it is that's happening within the games itself, right?00:28:42.552 --> 00:28:44.062
You get the little bit of backstory.00:28:44.772 --> 00:28:49.672
Here, everything's new for all the characters, and so they're all continuously trying to figure it out.00:28:49.992 --> 00:28:59.142
The world-- So in the first book, the world floods, but you are not plucked into the story with these characters having lived with the flood for months or years.00:28:59.142 --> 00:29:02.882
It's been, like, a week of people trying to figure it out, so.00:29:03.692 --> 00:29:04.092
But we'll see.00:29:04.092 --> 00:29:13.152
The reviews are coming back well and I did, like, a free week campaign where I was handing out books that I had raised for stu- or had people donate for students.00:29:13.152 --> 00:29:17.742
And so those reviews are coming back from kids and it's good to see that I can write in a different genre.00:29:17.797 --> 00:29:18.317
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:29:18.642 --> 00:29:18.902
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah.00:29:19.007 --> 00:29:22.247
Erin Bailey: I mean, it's very creative.00:29:22.247 --> 00:29:25.757
It takes a different part of your brain, I'm sure,00:29:25.802 --> 00:29:26.162
Matt Eicheldinger: Yeah.00:29:26.352 --> 00:29:36.012
But that's what I like about writing, is by 2027, I'll have written in, like, I think it's eight different genres, written and illustrated, and that keeps me fresh too.00:29:36.102 --> 00:29:41.652
So while I was writing a dystopian novel, I was also illustrating an early reader about two cute little monsters who fight.00:29:42.072 --> 00:29:46.672
And that, that that difference, I think, keeps things fresh in my brain at least.00:29:46.802 --> 00:29:46.862
Yeah.00:29:47.007 --> 00:29:47.277
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:29:47.337 --> 00:29:55.187
It's a good example for students too of how you may develop an affinity for a genre, but you can always explore other ones, and you should.00:29:56.112 --> 00:29:57.202
Matt Eicheldinger: Absolutely.00:29:58.584 --> 00:30:04.724
Erin Bailey: Well, I always like to end by asking guests this challenging question: What does reading inspire for you?00:30:06.269 --> 00:30:07.669
Matt Eicheldinger: Oh, reading for me?00:30:08.329 --> 00:30:09.899
That's a good question.00:30:10.129 --> 00:30:14.969
Trying to think of recent books I have read and how that might impact me.00:30:15.029 --> 00:30:21.468
I think Reading for me inspires just a love of learning, and learning about anything.00:30:21.468 --> 00:30:28.728
So even the fictional books that I'm reading currently I'm learning about different characteristics that I can include in my books.00:30:28.728 --> 00:30:34.958
I'm learning about different parts of the world and different states and how people are raised there and cultures and religions.00:30:34.958 --> 00:30:38.558
And so when I think of reading, it just inspires me to learn more.00:30:38.648 --> 00:30:44.328
The world is big and vast, and we tend to get really siloed in our own little space.00:30:44.718 --> 00:30:48.588
But reading brings you to other spaces you maybe wouldn't have otherwise accessed.00:30:48.993 --> 00:30:49.963
Erin Bailey: Yeah, absolutely.00:30:49.963 --> 00:30:55.693
It's like reading, you can be time traveling, you can be traveling to new places.00:30:55.973 --> 00:30:57.063
It can take you everywhere.00:30:57.063 --> 00:30:57.963
It's so true.00:30:58.413 --> 00:30:59.893
Well, thank you so much, Matt.00:30:59.893 --> 00:31:02.263
It's been wonderful having you on.00:31:02.263 --> 00:31:06.803
And again, this episode was special to celebrate Teacher Appreciation Week.00:31:06.803 --> 00:31:09.843
We appreciate all of our teachers listening.00:31:10.660 --> 00:31:14.200
Thank you for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading Is Fundamental.00:31:14.510 --> 00:31:19.990
I hope today's conversation sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading.00:31:20.340 --> 00:31:29.540
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with a fellow literacy champion, and join us next time as we continue exploring what reading inspires
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