Read What Your Kids Are Reading with Nick Bruel
In this episode, host Erin Bailey sits down with Nick Bruel, the bestselling author and illustrator behind the popular Bad Kitty books. Nick discusses his journey from working at a bookstore to becoming a published author, his hands-on artistic process, and how certain books he read early in life influenced his career. The discussion touches on how he deliberately crafts his illustrated chapter books — complete with nonfiction elements — to engage kids who don't typically enjoy reading, as well as the role libraries play in giving children the freedom to choose what they read. Nick encourages parents to pick up the same books their children are reading, and believes that being an avid, analytical reader is one of the best ways to grow as a writer.
About Nick:
Nicholas Tung Ming Bruel is an American author and illustrator of children’s books, most notably the Bad Kitty series. The first book in the series, Bad Kitty, is an alphabet-themed picture book, and expanded series includes both picture books and chapter books, as well as a guide to drawing comics. His books have been New York Times bestsellers.
Books:
- Bad Kitty Goes to the Beach: Bad Kitty Goes to the Beach
- Water resistant markers: Ohuhu Alcohol Markers Brush Tip -Double Tipped Art Marker Set for Artist Adults Coloring Illustration -48 Colors -Brush & Fine -Honolulu B -Refillable : Target
- Comic Book webinar: Webinar: Kapow! Building Writers Through Comics | RIF.org
- Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins: Amazon.com: The Hunger Games (Book 1): 9780439023528: Collins, Suzanne: Books
- Gregor the Overlander by Suzanne Collins: Gregor the Overlander Collection: Books 1-5 (The Underland Chronicles) - Kindle edition by Collins, Suzanne. Children Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.
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Erin Bailey: I am sitting down today with author and illustrator, Nick Brule, who recently presented his book.00:00:07.420 --> 00:00:08.260
It's Right Behind me.00:00:08.260 --> 00:00:16.150
If you're watching the video, A Bad Kitty goes to the beach at the rally to read Reading Inspires event in New York City.00:00:16.450 --> 00:00:17.590
And welcome Nick.00:00:18.405 --> 00:00:19.630
Nick Bruel: Well, thank you for having me.00:00:19.630 --> 00:00:20.440
I'm flattered you'd ask.00:00:21.775 --> 00:00:26.515
Erin Bailey: So I wanna learn a little bit about your background, and I'm sure our listeners do as well.00:00:26.515 --> 00:00:32.905
You are a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator, best known for the Bad Kitty series, which I mentioned.00:00:33.145 --> 00:00:41.855
Can you share a little bit about your journey into children's literature and how your own experiences as a reader shaped the creator that you became?00:00:43.050 --> 00:00:43.340
Nick Bruel: Sure.00:00:43.565 --> 00:00:53.605
I think my journey might be a little bit it might be unique in, in many ways in the industry I'm thought of as the guy who went from one side of the table to the other.00:00:53.605 --> 00:01:07.335
Because prior to doing what I do now I worked as a bookseller for over 15 years, and those last seven or so years were at a children's bookstore that still exists.00:01:07.335 --> 00:01:09.405
It is called Books of Wonder in Manhattan.00:01:10.385 --> 00:01:23.265
And for much of that time I was the guy who ran a lot of the signing events for children's book authors and illustrators who came into the stores both informally and for formal occasions.00:01:23.442 --> 00:01:27.912
During the time I worked at that store, I was a cartoonist.00:01:28.552 --> 00:01:37.592
I spent a lot of my free time writing and drawing these short stories, these cartoons I would send to newspapers and magazines around the country and around the world.00:01:38.132 --> 00:01:42.872
And in order to support this radical lifestyle, I worked.00:01:43.487 --> 00:02:02.567
In book retail and working in that children's bookstore meant that I had to read as many of those books as I possibly could because my mission while I was there was to put as many of those books into as many hands as I could.00:02:03.287 --> 00:02:06.677
And during that time, I started.00:02:07.097 --> 00:02:21.557
Contemplating how I could integrate these two sensibilities I had as somebody who was a cartoonist, and as somebody who was getting more and more entrenched into this format of picture books.00:02:22.917 --> 00:02:31.237
That's when I started creating manuscripts of my own book, dumb Rings that I could show to editors potentially.00:02:31.577 --> 00:02:44.207
And honestly, once I started creating my own stories based on what I was learning from working in that store and what I was reading, it actually happened fairly quickly.00:02:44.727 --> 00:02:49.257
The woman who would become my agent and still is Jenny Dunham.00:02:49.997 --> 00:02:57.692
She was a regular customer at the store who had heard this rumor that I was working on something that she might wanna see the man who had become my first editor.00:02:58.092 --> 00:03:05.052
He was good friends with a former store manager who saw what I did and said, you gotta show this to Chail.00:03:05.352 --> 00:03:17.112
So that is kind of the story, the trajectory that I took, which honestly did begin with my being surrounded by children's books.00:03:17.577 --> 00:03:18.927
For my job,00:03:20.357 --> 00:03:21.297
Erin Bailey: That's a great story.00:03:21.297 --> 00:03:29.947
You had real life market data right there that you could draw from and the, and you could see what children were interested in their reading.00:03:30.112 --> 00:03:34.642
So I am going to slip a few trick questions in that were not in the questions I sent.00:03:34.642 --> 00:03:43.322
These are from my daughter who's five years old, and she wants to know, do you always start with pencil when you draw your cartoons?00:03:43.922 --> 00:03:44.762
Nick Bruel: Oh, that's great.00:03:44.972 --> 00:03:48.332
Yes and kind of no.00:03:48.392 --> 00:03:56.912
So first what I will do is I'll just take regular paper just from the printer and if I have an idea.00:03:57.677 --> 00:04:08.642
Even if it's for a cartoon or if it's for a page of a bad kindie book I will use ballpoint pen to just start writing and sketching really quickly.00:04:08.642 --> 00:04:13.682
And I use pen because I don't want to waste time erasing00:04:14.127 --> 00:04:19.997
Once I have a sketch that is going to act as like the frame of what the.00:04:20.562 --> 00:04:22.932
The final artwork is gonna look like for me.00:04:23.472 --> 00:04:29.282
Then I'll take the paper where the artwork is going to appear the final piece.00:04:29.752 --> 00:04:34.732
And I will use pencil to, to draw it out loosely.00:04:35.662 --> 00:04:41.157
Then I will go over that pencil with ink for the final line art.00:04:41.807 --> 00:04:44.897
Erin Bailey: Okay, so pen, pencil, and then ink.00:04:45.842 --> 00:04:45.962
I.00:04:46.037 --> 00:04:46.427
Nick Bruel: Yeah.00:04:46.427 --> 00:04:56.597
And for, because I love process questions in case there's anyone out there who, any, especially kids who are looking to to be illustrators themselves.00:04:57.077 --> 00:04:59.797
It's important to use waterproof ink.00:04:59.797 --> 00:05:01.777
So I use two different types of pens.00:05:02.137 --> 00:05:08.687
I use these sort of Japanese brush pens, but I also use these very common micron.00:05:09.082 --> 00:05:09.502
Pens.00:05:09.502 --> 00:05:11.092
I even see them in Target nowadays.00:05:11.092 --> 00:05:17.512
They've become so ubiquitous, and that's important because they use permanent ink, their waterproof ink.00:05:18.212 --> 00:05:23.372
And that's because I'm now gonna go over the drawings, the line art with watercolor paint.00:05:23.852 --> 00:05:34.262
And even for something like Sharpies, if you go over it with water or anything that's wet, that line will bleed a little bit, but it won't bleed if it's permanent ink.00:05:35.157 --> 00:05:37.917
Also known as Waterproof Inc. So that part's important.00:05:37.992 --> 00:05:42.612
Erin Bailey: That's really fun and what a great experiment for families to try out at home, you know?00:05:42.697 --> 00:05:52.807
Do a drawing in Sharpie, let's say, and see what happens when you go over in watercolor and then use these waterproofing pens that you're sharing and go over and waterproof.00:05:52.807 --> 00:05:57.757
It gives children a example of the process that goes into it and what they would prefer.00:05:57.757 --> 00:05:57.787
I.00:05:59.098 --> 00:06:00.178
Nick Bruel: It absolutely.00:06:00.228 --> 00:06:08.088
It could remind me of an interesting craft you can do as well where you get multicolored sharpies.00:06:08.988 --> 00:06:15.258
And you do, you gotta make sure you got protection under the paper or under the fabric.00:06:15.258 --> 00:06:19.398
You could do this on a t-shirt but ink will run through onto your table if you're not careful.00:06:19.398 --> 00:06:21.528
So that's why you gotta put a lot of protection under it.00:06:21.708 --> 00:06:26.598
But what you do is you do a drawing and you can do this on a t-shirt, which is kind of makes for an interesting effect.00:06:26.718 --> 00:06:29.358
And once you've done the drawing with the Sharpie.00:06:29.833 --> 00:06:32.443
It's gonna look like it's pretty permanent, but it isn't real.00:06:32.863 --> 00:06:42.143
'cause what you can do then is take rubbing alcohol in an eye dropper and drop it over the sharpie drawing and it'll, you'll actually watch it bleed.00:06:42.513 --> 00:06:47.573
What's cool about that is you can get some really interesting designs and effects that way.00:06:48.103 --> 00:06:49.903
You know, adult supervision, of course.00:06:50.313 --> 00:06:50.733
Erin Bailey: almost.00:06:50.763 --> 00:06:51.053
Yeah.00:06:51.073 --> 00:06:51.493
Always.00:06:52.498 --> 00:06:54.018
Almost like tie dye in a way.00:06:54.813 --> 00:06:57.363
Nick Bruel: A little bit, you get a little bit of an effect like that.00:06:57.363 --> 00:06:57.693
Yeah.00:06:58.323 --> 00:06:58.623
Erin Bailey: Cool.00:06:58.963 --> 00:07:07.963
Well, thinking about your own reading journey as a child, do you remember a specific book or moment from your childhood that made you fall in love with reading?00:07:08.203 --> 00:07:11.168
And how has this influenced the types of stories that you write today?00:07:12.663 --> 00:07:13.443
Nick Bruel: Yeah.00:07:13.543 --> 00:07:22.583
I think I'd have to think about, I'd have to answer with the very first book that I ever read because my mother did something very clever.00:07:23.709 --> 00:07:30.369
When I was very young and learning to read, we're talking pre preschool, like three, four.00:07:30.609 --> 00:07:49.299
And what she did was every day she'd written out these flashcard, this index cards, and she'd written on big, bold letters, words like tree, car, hat, dog, and I was learning.00:07:50.349 --> 00:07:56.229
You know, one or two words a day for I don't know how many weeks, maybe even months.00:07:56.229 --> 00:07:57.309
I just can't remember.00:07:58.249 --> 00:08:05.389
And then one day my mother hands to me, go, dog, go by PD Eastman.00:08:05.389 --> 00:08:08.329
And she says, I want you to read this book.00:08:08.329 --> 00:08:09.859
And I go, what are you talking about?00:08:09.919 --> 00:08:10.759
I don't know how to read.00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:15.439
I mean, you gave me these words here and there, but that's kind of, that, that's a pretty big leap, mom.00:08:15.809 --> 00:08:16.379
And she said.00:08:17.024 --> 00:08:18.104
Go ahead, try it.00:08:18.104 --> 00:08:29.804
And I opened it up and what clicked was, oh, she taught me all of those words individually that make up this book.00:08:30.704 --> 00:08:39.194
And it, it was a moment that I remember quite distinctly, kind of feeling triumphant that I could actually open this.00:08:39.854 --> 00:08:45.824
This book and I can go page by page and all those words that she taught me.00:08:45.824 --> 00:08:51.044
Now they're there together, making sentences and a story.00:08:51.554 --> 00:08:54.044
This is kind of great.00:08:54.254 --> 00:08:56.594
I want more of this, please.00:08:57.689 --> 00:09:00.149
As to how influenced me later on.00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.919
I don't know if, I mean that book I is just a seminal work.00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.179
It is one of the greatest books for kids ever made.00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.699
And I don't think I'm alone in this being a ver a first book for a lot of kids.00:09:12.189 --> 00:09:17.619
I th it is perhaps notable that I would make a career out of writing stories about cats.00:09:17.619 --> 00:09:21.849
And my first book is all about just a massive collection of dogs.00:09:23.169 --> 00:09:31.419
But I think I'd have to go forward in time to a book that I discovered while I was in school.00:09:31.419 --> 00:09:33.469
It's out of print now, called fat Cat.00:09:34.699 --> 00:09:39.289
And Fat Cat was a beautiful picture book.00:09:39.769 --> 00:09:42.919
I'm going to describe it to you if you don't know it.00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:45.599
And your viewers, your listeners will think.00:09:46.004 --> 00:09:48.609
This is just a nightmare fuel.00:09:48.659 --> 00:09:51.509
Why would you even think about sharing this with us?00:09:51.629 --> 00:09:53.609
But bear with me for a moment.00:09:53.609 --> 00:10:02.999
Fat Cat was written by Jack Kent and it was based on a Danish folk tale about a cat that really is hungry as always hungry.00:10:02.999 --> 00:10:10.379
This cat and the cat wants to eat whatever stew is being made inside his owner's pot.00:10:10.619 --> 00:10:12.539
And the owner says, no, you've eaten enough.00:10:12.774 --> 00:10:13.464
You don't need any.00:10:13.584 --> 00:10:20.094
So the cat does what the cat wants to, which is eat the stew, eat the pot, then eat.00:10:20.094 --> 00:10:31.614
The owner then goes outside and eats everybody and everything in sight until it explodes in Jack, he's hands, it's charming.00:10:31.884 --> 00:10:33.174
It's hilarious.00:10:33.264 --> 00:10:34.289
It's even cute.00:10:35.029 --> 00:10:36.649
So that.00:10:37.209 --> 00:10:39.699
Book always stayed with me.00:10:40.229 --> 00:10:50.699
And you could trace, you could make the argument that what I do now as somebody who again, makes a career out of telling stories about this cat.00:10:51.089 --> 00:10:54.179
Back to that book about that cat.00:10:55.667 --> 00:10:56.582
Erin Bailey: I. Love it.00:10:56.582 --> 00:10:59.532
What a great start from dogs to cats.00:10:59.532 --> 00:11:04.632
And you know, speaking of cats, your most popular series is The Bad Kitty books.00:11:04.842 --> 00:11:06.132
They're wildly popular.00:11:06.132 --> 00:11:09.702
They're especially popular though with what we term reluctant readers.00:11:09.832 --> 00:11:12.112
Children who don't always see themselves as.00:11:12.497 --> 00:11:17.247
Readers but are, you know, everyone's looking for a good book, whether you realize it or not.00:11:17.247 --> 00:11:24.597
So why do you think the humor and the visual storytelling are such powerful tools in building literacy skills?00:11:25.837 --> 00:11:30.412
Nick Bruel: I so love that you asked me that question the way you did, because.00:11:31.437 --> 00:11:35.157
It justifies a lot of my efforts from very early on.00:11:35.427 --> 00:11:43.852
So now I'm speaking, I think you're speaking of the the chapter books that come after like the first bad Kitty book and.00:11:44.712 --> 00:12:10.742
When I came up with the idea to start creating early chapter books about this character that I'd already developed as a picture book character in
all sincerity rather than target an age group or a grade level, I decided early on that my target would be in fact, reluctant readers and to, so.00:12:11.367 --> 00:12:20.367
What I decided to do was to create what would be like a bridge from picture books to chapter books.00:12:20.667 --> 00:12:34.487
And to do that, I thought, well, what I'll do, and this is especially true for those first ones, like Bad Kitty gets a Bath and Happy Birthday, bad Kitty and so on, create chapter books that use the picture book format.00:12:34.997 --> 00:12:39.857
I mean, they're small, they're digest sized, but there'll be.00:12:40.432 --> 00:12:51.652
About 140, 50 pages, but every page will be illustrated along with text.00:12:52.222 --> 00:12:56.862
So that I feel me, felt like I, I need to target reluctant readers.00:12:57.072 --> 00:13:00.942
And one other thing I did in order to target reluctant readers.00:13:01.617 --> 00:13:11.157
Was to incorporate into them sections that I would actually kind of separate from the story.00:13:11.547 --> 00:13:14.737
So they'd be freestanding sections of nonfiction.00:13:14.947 --> 00:13:18.427
And that's why I did those Uncle Murray fun facts.00:13:18.487 --> 00:13:27.727
And this came early on from thinking about my nephew who when he was very young, was something of a reluctant reader.00:13:29.047 --> 00:13:31.357
I recognized early on, however.00:13:32.722 --> 00:13:38.092
Just, you know, interacting with him that he was a reluctant fiction reader to him.00:13:38.092 --> 00:13:43.192
Fiction didn't make a whole lot of sense, or it wasn't especially useful.00:13:43.492 --> 00:13:53.242
Whereas if you handed him the Guinness Book of World Records, he poured through every page of it and he'd come to me, say, uncle Nick did you know the longest earthworm ever recorded was seven feet?00:13:53.242 --> 00:13:55.522
And it's like he couldn't get enough of that.00:13:55.762 --> 00:13:58.222
So that's why I have.00:13:58.407 --> 00:14:04.077
In I would say, I think it's the first 14 of the, those books, these sections of Uncle Murray's fun facts.00:14:04.447 --> 00:14:18.667
So reluctant readers can actually turn to those pages specifically if they chose to, because nonfiction seems to have a certain appeal to certain kids that we think of as being reluctant readers, but fiction readers.00:14:20.132 --> 00:14:21.722
Erin Bailey: I could not agree with that more.00:14:21.722 --> 00:14:27.697
I, you know, I was a reading specialist, so I. Worked with students who were struggling with reading.00:14:27.877 --> 00:14:34.417
And a lot of times these students, of course, became reluctant readers because if something's challenging for you, you're not going to want to do it.00:14:34.417 --> 00:14:36.427
And I use that approach as well.00:14:36.427 --> 00:14:47.947
It's so interesting that you said it that way, but if you can find out a topic that a child is interested in and then find a great nonfiction text about that topic, it's a great way to hook them.00:14:47.947 --> 00:14:51.207
For some reason, nonfiction does resonate well with.00:14:52.217 --> 00:14:54.947
So I appreciate your approach to those books.00:14:56.437 --> 00:14:56.902
Nick Bruel: Well, thank you.00:14:57.437 --> 00:15:07.127
Erin Bailey: so in your view, why is reading so important for young people, not just academically, but socially, emotionally, and what does literacy unlock for a child?00:15:08.430 --> 00:15:09.780
Nick Bruel: that's a heavy topic.00:15:09.780 --> 00:15:22.291
Let me um, I mean, my first thought is why libraries and perhaps in particular school libraries are so important for kids, right?00:15:22.711 --> 00:15:27.631
Because yeah, they are completely filled with.00:15:28.741 --> 00:15:34.091
Thousands of books, which are gonna cover nearly every topic and imaginable.00:15:35.201 --> 00:15:45.101
But libraries are useful, and those books are useful because that's the room kids can go into and make their own choices.00:15:45.731 --> 00:15:47.741
Libraries are a place of freedom.00:15:48.461 --> 00:15:53.261
I mean, it certainly was for me when I was a kid and I would go to my school library and I think back on it.00:15:53.261 --> 00:15:54.281
It's like, all right, you know.00:15:55.196 --> 00:15:57.896
First period, I gotta go to music.00:15:57.896 --> 00:16:01.736
Second period, I gotta go to science third period.00:16:01.766 --> 00:16:04.106
You know, even though I love to draw, I gotta sit down and draw.00:16:04.106 --> 00:16:09.986
You know, where you're told when you're a kid, what you're supposed to do each and every moment of every single day that you're inside the school.00:16:10.406 --> 00:16:22.196
But then you go to library and maybe there's a lesson involved, but whatever book you choose to pick up and take out of the room and maybe home with you.00:16:23.096 --> 00:16:27.146
That's your choice completely.00:16:27.926 --> 00:16:30.656
And that's kind of wonderful.00:16:31.536 --> 00:16:43.311
And I remember embracing that notion as a kid that's like, oh, I. Here's the moment in the day where I actually get to do what I want.00:16:43.611 --> 00:16:45.051
I get to make that choice.00:16:45.051 --> 00:16:48.391
For me that's like that and recess.00:16:48.451 --> 00:16:49.291
That's about it.00:16:49.351 --> 00:16:52.501
You're even told what you have to eat for lunch when you go to school.00:16:52.831 --> 00:16:57.781
But that and recess, those are the two, you know, times where you really get to let loose.00:16:59.146 --> 00:17:07.666
Erin Bailey: I love the way you described library as freedom and choice is very important to reading as fundamentals model.00:17:07.666 --> 00:17:13.106
But if you think about it, it is true in many classrooms throughout the US there are not a lot of choices.00:17:13.286 --> 00:17:31.666
Even during the literacy block or the English language arts block, oftentimes you're reading a text as a whole class or as a student, you're guided towards
which text to choose because maybe it's the phonics pattern that you're working on or you know, some kind of other contrived convention that you're working on.00:17:31.696 --> 00:17:42.196
And yes, this is needed, but then the library acts as that kind of counter space where you have freedom and choice in what you want to read, and you can just explore.00:17:43.594 --> 00:17:43.894
Nick Bruel: Yeah.00:17:43.904 --> 00:17:48.434
And you're encouraged to explore when you're in the library, right?00:17:48.434 --> 00:17:53.024
It is not even that you go in there you, and you're just sort of like wandering around.00:17:53.024 --> 00:17:56.024
I mean, there's some of that component where you just kind of wander around aimlessly, but.00:17:56.474 --> 00:18:03.704
You're kind of given the tools necessary to learn how to explore productively, right?00:18:03.704 --> 00:18:27.599
It's like if, so, if you're that kid who's into mythology like I was actually in fourth grade you can go in the library and you can, you're given the tools not only to make those
choices for yourself, but also to explore where the mythology section is so that you can actually, surgically aim your exploration and your exercise of freedom, and that's great.00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:29.519
I love that part about what libraries do.00:18:30.384 --> 00:18:30.654
Erin Bailey: Great.00:18:31.464 --> 00:18:38.364
So our next topic I actually bring up a lot on the podcast is around visual literacy and graphic storytelling.00:18:38.364 --> 00:18:40.494
It's two things that I am very passionate about.00:18:40.494 --> 00:18:44.364
I see myself as a visual literacy person.00:18:44.394 --> 00:18:54.504
So can you explain to us how illustrations and graphic elements support literacy development and how this helps build confidence in for children?00:18:55.335 --> 00:18:56.175
Nick Bruel: I can try.00:18:56.225 --> 00:19:00.365
I mean, I'm not an educator, but so I, but, so I can come at that some, something like that.00:19:00.365 --> 00:19:07.535
As somebody who uses words and pictures to tell stories, now I do that because it's kind of how I think too.00:19:07.975 --> 00:19:13.825
And I, and this may stem from the fact that I was a huge comic book reader when I was a kid.00:19:13.825 --> 00:19:14.425
I still am.00:19:14.425 --> 00:19:15.925
It's still my favorite.00:19:16.235 --> 00:19:18.275
Format to sit back and relax.00:19:18.275 --> 00:19:24.725
I just still love to just get a big collection of Batman stories and sit back and read those in an afternoon.00:19:25.505 --> 00:19:37.035
What I will say is I mean there are the, we know those kids exist who, because I was one of them that who need, you know, graphic storytelling.00:19:37.035 --> 00:19:39.315
They need to see their, they need to have stories.00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:44.700
That are told with both words and pictures what I do with the bad kitty books.00:19:44.730 --> 00:19:57.610
'cause they really have moved from the sort of hybrid format where every page is an illustration with text up top to now they're much more the graphic novel format.00:19:58.220 --> 00:19:58.885
Where I am.00:20:00.232 --> 00:20:10.582
Focused, or I should say I'm aware of is for a lot of kids, bad kiddie books might be their first foray into graphic storytelling.00:20:11.182 --> 00:20:22.342
And if you were to go into a comic bookstore today and even get comic books that are for younger audiences the graphic storytelling elements with all the frames.00:20:23.227 --> 00:20:31.747
Can be a little bit intimidating 'cause they can compact a lot of language and frames and storytelling into just one or two pages.00:20:32.287 --> 00:20:34.957
So I go outta my way, lemme see if I can get an example.00:20:35.467 --> 00:20:40.267
I try to go out of my way to keep the frame telling.00:20:40.267 --> 00:20:41.737
Yeah, here we go.00:20:41.737 --> 00:20:42.457
Very simple.00:20:43.057 --> 00:20:48.027
I it's basically very linear from top from left to right, top to bottom.00:20:48.207 --> 00:20:48.957
There's not.00:20:49.827 --> 00:20:55.557
Even when I have, you know, four frames, I try to keep 'em more or less going from top to bottom.00:20:56.247 --> 00:21:08.132
And there'll be a few exceptions because I want the kids who are, you know, going into graphic storytelling as a preferred form of reading in a gentler way.00:21:09.162 --> 00:21:17.152
They'll get to like the big complicated Batman, you know, mult 20 frames in a page pages soon enough that's going to happen.00:21:17.912 --> 00:21:22.862
But for now, I try to keep the bat kitty ones simple in their storytelling.00:21:23.042 --> 00:21:27.312
What's interesting is is as I was starting to create.00:21:27.657 --> 00:21:36.177
This type of storytelling myself, because I didn't start using frames with any regularity until maybe book number 7, 8, 9, I think bad kid takes a test.00:21:36.177 --> 00:21:51.777
It's the first time I ever really used frames is something I didn't realize until I started to tell these stories myself, is that the more frames I use, the more panels I use on a page, the slower the storytelling.00:21:52.657 --> 00:22:02.797
So I, I can actually tell a story and if I feel like I need to pump the brakes a little bit in the pacing of how the story goes, I add more frames.00:22:02.827 --> 00:22:03.637
It's interesting.00:22:03.637 --> 00:22:07.737
So, if I, and if I need a big burst, you turn the page and it's two pages.00:22:07.737 --> 00:22:08.547
There's no frames.00:22:08.577 --> 00:22:10.437
It's just a big two page splash.00:22:11.137 --> 00:22:14.827
So that was a bit of, that was something I learned.00:22:15.397 --> 00:22:17.287
About how I tell a story.00:22:17.287 --> 00:22:19.777
I think it's also gonna be how kids are gonna read it too.00:22:19.927 --> 00:22:24.877
It's like they can slow down their own reading pace with, by having more frames.00:22:25.147 --> 00:22:38.577
I think the tr the I guess the obstacle you run across though for is the more complicated graphic novels are gonna have way too many frames for a younger audience to to read.00:22:38.577 --> 00:22:39.452
And that's what I try to avoid.00:22:40.537 --> 00:22:47.117
Erin Bailey: You know, I've noticed that in reading comics with my daughter, as I mentioned, she's five and we do read comics.00:22:47.117 --> 00:22:49.507
You know, we have some Spider-Man ones and other comics.00:22:49.507 --> 00:22:55.387
But I've noticed that she asked me if I can point to the speech bubbles.00:22:55.857 --> 00:23:06.867
On the, in the different frames when I'm reading it, because otherwise, with so many frames on a page, her eyes might jump around and she might not be following the story in the order that it's being read.00:23:06.867 --> 00:23:15.827
Because she, without being able to read what we call conventionally, the words on the page, she wouldn't know who is saying what and in what order that they're reading it.00:23:15.827 --> 00:23:20.297
So I do appreciate that it's like a first step into graphic storytelling.00:23:21.122 --> 00:23:30.322
I, you know, I'll also share, we recently had a webinar on how to teach children writing skills through graphic storytelling and comics.00:23:30.352 --> 00:23:38.962
And what the presenter, Shannon Live shared is that those gutters, which are the spaces between the frames that you were referring to, that's where inferencing happens.00:23:39.202 --> 00:23:44.032
So if you think about it, if you have less frames on a page, it requires.00:23:44.462 --> 00:23:51.902
Actually larger leaps in the inferencing, whereas what you're describing, if you put more frames on the page, you're guiding the reader a little bit more.00:23:53.282 --> 00:23:53.942
Nick Bruel: Oh, that's interesting.00:23:53.942 --> 00:23:56.272
I never con consider it that way.00:23:56.302 --> 00:23:57.052
It's, yeah.00:23:57.112 --> 00:23:57.442
All right.00:23:57.442 --> 00:23:58.162
That makes sense to me.00:23:58.587 --> 00:24:01.287
Erin Bailey: Yeah, it matches very well with what you're describing.00:24:01.807 --> 00:24:11.377
So next I wanna ask you for families who are listening or educators, librarians trying to nurture a love of reading, what practical advice do you have?00:24:11.377 --> 00:24:16.327
How can you help children see reading not as a task, but as a joyful experience?00:24:16.942 --> 00:24:38.582
Nick Bruel: You know my answer to that one, it well actually stems from my years as a bookseller because I would occasionally get you know,
parents mostly who would come in and they want, they're coming into a bookstore because they want to encourage their own kids to read more.00:24:39.332 --> 00:24:48.122
And I think the distractions today are even more, you know, are even multifold, you know, greater than they ever were when I was a bookseller.00:24:48.332 --> 00:24:52.787
And my advice to them was always the same, read the same thing as they are reading.00:24:54.002 --> 00:24:57.902
I mean, you are, for picture books, it's obvious you're reading it to them, their lab books.00:24:57.902 --> 00:24:59.542
It's an intimate experience.00:24:59.602 --> 00:25:04.762
But if you're coming in, you want to buy books for a 10-year-old to read on their own.00:25:05.712 --> 00:25:07.662
You should read that book too.00:25:08.912 --> 00:25:13.112
Because one of the, one of the things, what was it?00:25:13.292 --> 00:25:25.452
I think it was Marshall McCluen who would talk about like cold media and warm media and he'd say that, you know, books are very warm media because everybody on the planet can sing this, can read the same book, and then you can have a conversation about it.00:25:25.822 --> 00:25:30.262
And whereas, you know, television's a cold media because there's really no interaction.00:25:31.022 --> 00:25:32.342
Between you and the medium.00:25:32.402 --> 00:25:40.142
But, so if you can read the same book that your kid is reading, then you can actually have a conversation.00:25:40.142 --> 00:25:47.222
Then it's a, an experience you're both sharing and you can share it long after you've both finished the book.00:25:47.672 --> 00:25:53.732
And that's where series books actually come in Helpful, I suppose, because you can move on to the next book together.00:25:54.272 --> 00:26:04.702
It's funny, I hadn't thought of this in a very long time, but I think my father must have understood this because we read several of the l Frank Baum Wizard of Oz books, together.00:26:04.702 --> 00:26:06.562
I hadn't remember, I hadn't to this moment.00:26:06.562 --> 00:26:08.242
I hadn't thought of this in decades.00:26:08.242 --> 00:26:11.732
But so yeah, I guess my dad must have understood this intuitively.00:26:11.732 --> 00:26:18.302
'cause we read a lot of those Oz books and they were bonkers and talked about them you know, afterwards.00:26:19.222 --> 00:26:30.412
Erin Bailey: I think what you're also describing is reading as a social activity, which we talk about a lot too at reading as fundamental, when you make reading a social activity it's more enjoyable for children and it's.00:26:30.472 --> 00:26:32.932
And it's more sustainable, but that's great advice.00:26:32.932 --> 00:26:34.852
It's simple, it's actionable.00:26:35.062 --> 00:26:36.802
Read what your children are reading.00:26:36.802 --> 00:26:48.802
I know when I was a teacher, I tried to, I had a professor who encouraged us to do the same, and luckily when I first started out teaching, I also had teacher roommates, and so we would read what the popular series were.00:26:48.802 --> 00:26:52.252
At the time, when I first started teaching, hunger Games just came out.00:26:52.252 --> 00:26:58.222
So all of us teachers who were living in a house together, we all read Hunger Games, we talked about it, and we were.00:26:58.417 --> 00:26:59.077
Right there.00:26:59.077 --> 00:27:02.077
When students would ask us, do you have hunger Games?00:27:02.077 --> 00:27:05.497
Do you want to read Hunger Games with me and talk about Hunger Games?00:27:05.497 --> 00:27:07.127
So, it's great advice.00:27:07.982 --> 00:27:12.002
Nick Bruel: You know, I'll just add that these books are phenomenal.00:27:12.272 --> 00:27:20.152
I mean, my favorite books are the, are middle grade and maybe slightly older, not quite young adult type novels.00:27:20.497 --> 00:27:20.587
Erin Bailey: Mm-hmm.00:27:21.472 --> 00:27:24.292
Nick Bruel: They're out of this world.00:27:24.352 --> 00:27:25.132
I mean, so what?00:27:25.132 --> 00:27:25.942
Hunger Games?00:27:26.042 --> 00:27:27.542
Oh, who's the author on that?00:27:28.232 --> 00:27:29.612
Erin Bailey: I'm gonna have to link it below.00:27:29.612 --> 00:27:31.227
I do not know off the top of my head.00:27:32.042 --> 00:27:34.502
Nick Bruel: but her previous series I'm pretty sure is Gregor the overlander.00:27:35.569 --> 00:27:42.619
And it's a phenomenal series and it's such good reading.00:27:42.719 --> 00:27:55.724
These are spectacular stories that even if you're an adult you won't necessarily be, you are not the target audience, so you're not gonna be, you know, compelled to pick them up off the shelves.00:27:56.234 --> 00:28:05.474
But they're phenomenal storytelling and they also tend to be the type of storytelling that I appreciate more where there's more focus on character development and on.00:28:05.869 --> 00:28:07.949
And propelling the story forward.00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:23.569
So you, if you're gonna read the same thing, your kids are read, you know, Beverly Cleary, I don't care what age you are, Ramona and Ramona Bees, they're phenomenal stories that, that any age is going to appreciate and embrace.00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:25.759
I don't care who you are or how old you are.00:28:26.829 --> 00:28:29.484
Erin Bailey: I, I couldn't agree more A few years ago.00:28:29.686 --> 00:28:40.946
We launched a middle school program and so to do so, my coworkers and I had to sit down and read a whole bunch of middle grade and YA novels, and they're fantastic.00:28:40.946 --> 00:28:42.446
I enjoyed them myself.00:28:42.726 --> 00:28:44.436
And I will link Hunger Games down below.00:28:44.436 --> 00:28:46.236
That's Suzanne Collins, who's the author of00:28:46.286 --> 00:28:47.336
Nick Bruel: Suzanne Kane, thank you.00:28:47.336 --> 00:28:52.981
And she did and I'm, I think, I'm trying not mistaken, she did Gregor the Overlander, which is a phenomenal series.00:28:53.776 --> 00:28:57.076
Erin Bailey: Which I can link below as well, and that's a great tip as well.00:28:57.076 --> 00:29:09.736
If you have a series that you're interested in, check out other series that the author has written or other books that the author has written, because if you like their writing style, then you'll probably like those other books too.00:29:09.736 --> 00:29:09.796
I.00:29:10.426 --> 00:29:10.696
Nick Bruel: Yeah.00:29:11.446 --> 00:29:14.656
Erin Bailey: It's a great way to get kids hooked and to keep them, them reading.00:29:15.136 --> 00:29:17.446
Well, Nick, this has been fantastic.00:29:17.446 --> 00:29:21.286
I always end by asking guests, what does reading inspire for you?00:29:21.286 --> 00:29:21.316
I.00:29:22.562 --> 00:29:26.642
Nick Bruel: For me, reading inspires writing.00:29:26.742 --> 00:29:28.612
When I visit schools I get.00:29:29.997 --> 00:29:35.967
Questions similar to, to, to what you just asked, and usually a form of like, what inspires me?00:29:35.967 --> 00:29:37.167
And I say it's always reading.00:29:37.167 --> 00:29:46.231
If as a writer, if you want to be a writer, then you have to read as much as possible.00:29:47.371 --> 00:30:06.021
Having said that, I recognize that I'm saying this on a podcast for reading is fundamental and I recognize that kids who may be
hearing this are already hearing this from the big people at home and all the big people at school and all the big people around them.00:30:06.021 --> 00:30:11.721
'cause they're already saying to them, you have to read as much as possible.00:30:12.411 --> 00:30:14.211
Your future depends on it.00:30:15.077 --> 00:30:17.297
Kids, the big people say this because it's true.00:30:18.377 --> 00:30:22.067
And as a writer, this is especially true because of this.00:30:22.067 --> 00:30:22.967
You have to think of it this way.00:30:23.427 --> 00:30:24.627
Let's say you read a book.00:30:25.347 --> 00:30:28.017
You finish the book, you close the book, you put it down, you set it aside.00:30:28.017 --> 00:30:31.497
You say to yourself, wow, I love that book.00:30:31.587 --> 00:30:32.637
That was an amazing book.00:30:32.637 --> 00:30:36.510
I'm gonna tell everybody to read that book as a writer.00:30:36.609 --> 00:30:38.889
I asked myself the question, what was it about that book that.00:30:39.189 --> 00:30:40.719
I love so much.00:30:41.499 --> 00:30:45.549
If you can find that answer, you can use that in your own writing.00:30:45.789 --> 00:30:49.659
Now, on the other side of the coin, let's say you read a book.00:30:50.649 --> 00:30:52.809
You finish the book, you close the book, you put it down, you set it aside.00:30:52.809 --> 00:30:56.822
You say to yourself, oh, boy I was not the best book.00:30:56.912 --> 00:30:57.872
I didn't love that book.00:30:57.872 --> 00:31:02.342
I don't think I can tell anybody to read that book because let's face it, that happens.00:31:02.342 --> 00:31:05.432
It's okay as a writer.00:31:06.872 --> 00:31:10.982
I have to ask myself that question, what was it about that book that did not work for me?00:31:10.982 --> 00:31:16.442
If I can find that, answer it, it will be equally useful to me in the long run.00:31:16.442 --> 00:31:28.472
So the lesson I give to kids, to put it more succinctly, I suppose when I talk to them in schools, is don't worry about whether you think you're gonna love or not love the book that's in your hand.00:31:28.472 --> 00:31:28.922
Read it.00:31:29.597 --> 00:31:35.447
Anyway, because as a writer, they will all be equally useful to you in the long run.00:31:36.554 --> 00:31:37.304
Erin Bailey: I love that.00:31:37.304 --> 00:31:52.614
You know, I've talked to other folks as well about how passion for a book is passion and it gets you talking, it gets you to do an action and sometimes it's the books that we really hate or thought were really awful that actually inspire us to do more things.00:31:52.614 --> 00:31:55.344
So I appreciate that and I appreciate you, Nick.00:31:55.344 --> 00:31:56.814
Thank you so much for joining.00:31:57.569 --> 00:31:58.489
Nick Bruel: Well, thank you for having me.00:31:58.489 --> 00:32:00.024
This was true delight.00:32:00.354 --> 00:32:00.894
Appreciate it.
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