Reading and Relevance Reimagined with Dr. Katie Sciurba

00:00:00.589 --> 00:00:03.339

Erin Bailey: Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.

00:00:03.339 --> 00:00:05.079

I'm your host, Dr. Erin Bailey.

00:00:05.229 --> 00:00:08.379

This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading.

00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:15.104

In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question.

00:00:15.969 --> 00:00:17.589

What does Reading inspire for you?

00:00:17.829 --> 00:00:25.209

Through stories, research, and real world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes, we explore what literacy looks like and why it matters.

00:00:25.599 --> 00:00:31.056

Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here.

00:00:31.189 --> 00:00:31.969

get inspired.

00:00:32.039 --> 00:00:34.919

Today I'm very excited to have our guest, Dr.

00:00:34.919 --> 00:00:35.819

Katie Sherpa.

00:00:36.214 --> 00:00:41.404

Who's an assistant professor at University of Georgia, but before she was a professor there.

00:00:41.404 --> 00:00:46.654

She was my professor at University of San Diego when I was studying education undergrad.

00:00:46.774 --> 00:00:48.604

And I learned a lot from Dr. Sheba.

00:00:48.604 --> 00:00:50.704

I learned about backwards design.

00:00:50.734 --> 00:00:54.344

She introduced the works of Paolo Frere and ero.

00:00:54.534 --> 00:00:55.914

But there's one.

00:00:56.274 --> 00:00:58.584

Core memory from her class that I wanted to share.

00:00:58.944 --> 00:01:02.394

'cause it relates to the topic today on reading and writing relevance.

00:01:02.484 --> 00:01:09.744

And that is from back in our class when we, it was mostly a female dominant profession education.

00:01:09.744 --> 00:01:11.934

So it was young college women in the class.

00:01:11.964 --> 00:01:19.301

And Dr. Sheba allowed us this space to talk dis display displayed in fairytales and in movies that we saw growing up.

00:01:19.301 --> 00:01:19.991

And keep in mind.

00:01:20.396 --> 00:01:30.191

I'm a millennial, so the princesses I grew up with, I mean, if you want to even think of Princess as an archetype or a genre, was very different than the that my daughter's growing up with now.

00:01:30.191 --> 00:01:30.351

So.

00:01:31.036 --> 00:01:39.482

The women in the class really opened up about how we saw ourselves, our, what we thought who we saw ourselves in the reading and writing of princesses and our identities.

00:01:39.572 --> 00:01:45.342

And really thank Dr. Sheba for creating the space for us to have that conversation and resonated with me.

00:01:45.592 --> 00:01:46.117

So welcome Dr.

00:01:46.269 --> 00:01:47.649

Katie Sciurba: Well, thank you for having me.

00:01:47.649 --> 00:01:48.039

Thank you.

00:01:48.039 --> 00:01:48.729

Thank you.

00:01:49.444 --> 00:01:51.557

Erin Bailey: kick to, excuse me, kick us off.

00:01:51.557 --> 00:01:55.367

Can you share a little bit about your journey into literacy education?

00:01:55.817 --> 00:02:03.527

What led you from the classroom to becoming a scholar of literacies and children's literature and ultimately writing your book reading and relevance reimagined?

00:02:03.559 --> 00:02:04.069

Katie Sciurba: Well,

00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:07.929

that's a lot to answer in one question, but let's see here.

00:02:08.139 --> 00:02:14.209

I would say I've always been a reader and I've always been a writer and that really began when I was a kid.

00:02:14.209 --> 00:02:14.459

I always.

00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:16.999

Wanted to write books for children.

00:02:17.419 --> 00:02:20.989

I don't know why I had that in my head, probably from the time I was in fourth grade.

00:02:20.989 --> 00:02:26.389

And so I would write stories on tablets that my grandfather brought home from his job at a paper factory.

00:02:26.389 --> 00:02:33.559

So my grandpa would take these long naps during the day when she was watching us, while my mother was at work, and I would just write stories.

00:02:33.619 --> 00:02:36.919

And so that's one thing that I remember very vividly.

00:02:36.954 --> 00:02:39.144

I remember watching Reading Rainbow.

00:02:39.204 --> 00:02:42.964

I remember all the commercials actually from reading is Fundamental.

00:02:43.184 --> 00:02:51.344

I remember all of the, you know, the celebrities like Mr. T and people like that who really made reading super interesting and fascinating for me as a kid.

00:02:51.344 --> 00:02:55.414

And I think one of the things that really helped me.

00:02:56.024 --> 00:03:06.364

You know, kind of carve out a path as someone who became interested in helping other people learn how to read is seeing my own sisters have a little bit more of a challenge when it came to reading.

00:03:06.364 --> 00:03:10.004

So I would let, I would get to play school with them and teach them how to read.

00:03:10.004 --> 00:03:10.664

And I loved it.

00:03:10.664 --> 00:03:15.094

And I loved, especially when I see the I would see them get it after struggling.

00:03:15.094 --> 00:03:18.304

And so that really kind of planted the seed early for me.

00:03:19.004 --> 00:03:25.394

When I moved to New York, I, you know, I became a teacher really early in my career.

00:03:25.394 --> 00:03:27.524

I was a fourth and fifth grade teacher in the Bronx.

00:03:27.584 --> 00:03:41.224

And one of the things that I realized is that you know, I, one, one of the things, I guess I was an assumption from my teacher education program

is that the kids didn't have a lot of opportunities to see their identities reflected in the literature that we had available in the classroom.

00:03:41.764 --> 00:03:45.934

So that's one of the things that I went into my career early on thinking was.

00:03:46.234 --> 00:03:50.404

Maybe, you know, was something worth exploring what was happening in the classroom?

00:03:50.404 --> 00:03:51.994

Is this why some of my kids were struggling?

00:03:51.994 --> 00:03:55.504

Did they not see reflections of their lives in the literature that we had available?

00:03:55.894 --> 00:03:58.024

So when I went to pursue my PhD.

00:03:58.714 --> 00:04:02.494

That's what I really decided to dig in a little bit more deeply to find out more about.

00:04:02.494 --> 00:04:14.114

So I actually returned to my former students when I started my PhD at NYU and asked them you know, to what degree they saw themselves reflected, and their answers were very surprising, which is ultimately what led to my book project.

00:04:14.114 --> 00:04:20.504

They really made me question my own assumptions about what was relevant, what would be relevant, and what could be relevant.

00:04:20.834 --> 00:04:26.414

So that's really how I got launched into the direction that I've headed in, up, up to this point.

00:04:27.665 --> 00:04:29.495

Erin Bailey: That's I'm, I'll hold the book here.

00:04:29.685 --> 00:04:36.804

For those the, the video version of this, the full title is Reading and Relevance Reimagined, celebrating the Literacy.

00:04:37.089 --> 00:04:38.829

Lives of young men of color.

00:04:38.829 --> 00:04:44.729

And I know you mentioned revisiting your fourth grade and fifth grade students to do the research.

00:04:44.729 --> 00:04:54.449

Can you talk to us about, was there a moment or an experience or something from your research that made you want to revisit and reconceptualize

00:04:54.449 --> 00:04:55.109

relevance?

00:04:55.130 --> 00:04:57.110

Katie Sciurba: Yes, that's a hundred percent.

00:04:57.320 --> 00:04:58.730

That's exactly what happened.

00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:20.710

I was taking a course at New York University and I went back to, to, you know, explore this concept of relevance with my kids and it had been ingrained in us from the time I was doing teacher prep or was in my

teacher prep program, that we needed to make sure that we reflected our students' identities, and that typically meant their racial and ethnic identities, but it also oftentimes meant their gender identities.

00:05:21.410 --> 00:05:29.750

So what I assumed when I went in to talk to my former fourth grade kids is that they would tell me, oh, I don't see reflections of my own racial ethnic background.

00:05:29.750 --> 00:05:34.100

I don't see enough boys reflected in the literature, and they didn't say that to me at all.

00:05:34.490 --> 00:05:39.830

And so I was really surprised and taken aback and I thought, okay, so what is it exactly that you like to read?

00:05:39.830 --> 00:05:49.550

And they were talking about, you know, Beverly Cleary and her Ramon and the Ramona Books and Adventure series and a lot of, animal books and things like that.

00:05:49.550 --> 00:05:55.640

And when I asked them questions about why did these books resonate with you so, so much what was it that, that you connected with?

00:05:55.910 --> 00:06:00.740

They were like, well, my family, I got to see, you know, I know what it's like to be, you know, to have an older brother.

00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:06.170

And so this book reminded me of my older brother, or this character always gets into trouble the way that I get into trouble.

00:06:06.200 --> 00:06:07.990

So it reminds me of myself.

00:06:08.335 --> 00:06:12.445

Or this character, you know, went off in an adventure that I would like to take one day.

00:06:12.445 --> 00:06:17.765

I've never really been outside the Bronx, so it's helped me think about other places I might explore in my own life.

00:06:18.275 --> 00:06:27.995

So these are the kind of questions that the kids or these, the kind of answers that the kids gave me and I thought, oh man, I've really got a question, my own assumptions, because I knew that identity was still important and.

00:06:28.075 --> 00:06:44.975

We knew that there was a great need for diversity in books, in classrooms in particular, but I felt like something was a little bit off in terms of how we were

conceptualizing rel, what it meant to be relevant, and what it meant to be relevant to different kids in different places and spaces and at different times in their lives.

00:06:45.605 --> 00:06:49.355

So that's why I really decided to explore that for my book project.

00:06:51.094 --> 00:06:51.754

Erin Bailey: Amazing.

00:06:52.064 --> 00:07:10.530

And I'll, I'm quoting from your book here, but you define relevance in your book as the condition of being practically socially or conceptually applicable to How does this differ from what or former interpretations of relevance in classrooms looked like and

00:07:10.530 --> 00:07:10.770

felt

00:07:10.770 --> 00:07:11.040

like?

00:07:11.357 --> 00:07:17.512

Katie Sciurba: Well, I would say that there are as many definitions of the word relevance as there are teachers out there in the world.

00:07:18.827 --> 00:07:20.887

You know, we didn't really have a concrete definition.

00:07:21.352 --> 00:07:27.742

And or understanding that we could operate from when it came to articulating exactly what the word relevance itself meant.

00:07:28.072 --> 00:07:33.052

So we would hear, I would often hear culturally relevant pedagogy being, being kind of tossed around.

00:07:33.052 --> 00:07:35.212

That's Gloria Latson Billing's Powerful Work.

00:07:35.242 --> 00:07:40.692

And she talks about, you know, the social significance of reading and literacy practices.

00:07:41.082 --> 00:07:47.702

But the word relevant itself within her definition wasn't, wasn't really defined concretely.

00:07:47.822 --> 00:07:53.642

And so then what happened was people were taking her theory, which again, I, this is not at all to discount her theory.

00:07:53.642 --> 00:07:55.982

It's extremely important and everybody should read her work.

00:07:55.982 --> 00:07:58.352

I could never have done my work without reading her work.

00:07:58.692 --> 00:08:10.092

But what happened and what I've seen in education spaces is that people would start to just apply a small fragment of her theory and kind of reduce it down to just talking about race.

00:08:10.547 --> 00:08:16.907

Or just talking about gender or just talking about one tiny part of a child's identity.

00:08:17.297 --> 00:08:20.717

And so what I try to do is think a little bit more broadly.

00:08:20.747 --> 00:08:26.832

Yes, identity is certainly a large part of what makes something relevant or that can make something relevant depending on the reader.

00:08:27.182 --> 00:08:38.752

But that we had to have a more of a way to articulate what exactly it means for something to be relevant that isn't just you are this race, therefore this book will be, you know, meaningful to you.

00:08:39.052 --> 00:08:44.122

Because we were having, what I've seen in education, you know, 20 years in the field now, is that there's a matchup approach.

00:08:44.122 --> 00:08:45.412

There's a lot of assumptions made about.

00:08:45.812 --> 00:08:56.842

For example, right now what I'm seeing with some of the anti DEI discourse is that white students will not find these kind of books or topics relevant because it'll make them feel badly.

00:08:57.142 --> 00:09:05.572

So that's what I, that's the kind of thing that I try to challenge in my work is that we can't make assumptions based on the racial identities of the kids that we see.

00:09:06.007 --> 00:09:14.917

We tended to take a real essentialist approach to relevance in classroom spaces, and this has nothing to do with the original theory by Gloria Latson Billings, if you read her work.

00:09:14.917 --> 00:09:19.687

It's way more complex than what I, how I've actually seen it put into practice in many classroom spaces.

00:09:20.988 --> 00:09:24.198

Erin Bailey: It's almost like her theories were boiled down and simplify.

00:09:24.443 --> 00:09:26.633

To the point where they lost

00:09:26.659 --> 00:09:27.169

And purpose.

00:09:27.231 --> 00:09:28.071

Katie Sciurba: Absolutely.

00:09:28.071 --> 00:09:37.421

I think that one of the things that, that she articulates very well in her work is that there's this need for criticality and kids should be reflective of their own worlds.

00:09:37.421 --> 00:09:41.781

You know, you really, I think her work aligns really nicely with Palo Re and Don La Mae.

00:09:41.781 --> 00:09:43.071

Those conversations around liter.

00:09:43.186 --> 00:09:49.546

See, reading the word in the world, but it was really distilled down to a, there was, it was too simplified.

00:09:49.846 --> 00:09:51.406

Or at least it's been very simplified.

00:09:51.406 --> 00:10:01.756

And even with extensions, like, culturally sustaining pedagogy you know, Paris and Ali's work it still, they troubled the word relevant saying that didn't go far enough.

00:10:01.756 --> 00:10:08.726

So they wanted to change the word to sustaining, to talk about really honoring where kids were, but also enhancing their criticality.

00:10:09.061 --> 00:10:17.801

But for me, what I argue where I kind of, it's not that I pushed back against that, but what I say is that it's, the word relevant in and of itself for me wasn't necessarily the issue.

00:10:17.831 --> 00:10:25.601

It was the way in which relevant practices have been conceptualized and put into in, into practice in education spaces.

00:10:27.060 --> 00:10:32.905

Erin Bailey: Absolutely, and we can all relate to somebody who doesn't look exactly like us or share a background.

00:10:33.865 --> 00:10:41.635

to ours and it could be through a shared culture like the one that you created within the college class that I had with you.

00:10:41.635 --> 00:10:44.725

You know, classrooms themselves become cultures.

00:10:44.725 --> 00:10:48.315

You have a classroom culture and then you have relevant that you can all

00:10:48.315 --> 00:10:48.915

relate to.

00:10:49.002 --> 00:10:49.692

Katie Sciurba: Absolutely.

00:10:49.692 --> 00:10:56.982

I think one of the things that happens is you can take the same person or a person with the same, you know, racial, ethnic identity and move them.

00:10:57.962 --> 00:11:00.002

And they'll have a very different experience of relevance.

00:11:00.002 --> 00:11:13.262

So for my students in New York City and the Bronx in particular, where I was a classroom teacher, if I had interviewed children from

similar racial ethnic backgrounds in California, where I was born, where I'm from, I think I would've had very different responses.

00:11:13.292 --> 00:11:21.032

On some level, there would've been some degree that space Spatiality was playing into the way in which they were conceptualizing relevance as well.

00:11:22.201 --> 00:11:22.671

Erin Bailey: Thank you.

00:11:22.961 --> 00:11:31.681

Speaking of Spatiality, you have four dimensions of relevance that you discuss in your book, identity, spatiality, temporality, and ideology.

00:11:32.061 --> 00:11:36.931

Can you us through these dimensions and how do they influence students' reading

00:11:36.931 --> 00:11:37.741

experiences?

00:11:37.988 --> 00:11:38.438

Katie Sciurba: Sure.

00:11:38.438 --> 00:11:44.588

So I would say that the four of these dimensions are you know, they are always at play.

00:11:44.648 --> 00:11:53.648

I would say they're, the way that I describe it as that these four dimensions are always kind of in the background, like the score of a film, but one of them may become more salient, or two of them may.

00:11:53.808 --> 00:11:56.238

Become more salient, just as certain instruments will.

00:11:56.478 --> 00:12:00.408

So you notice them more or they become more important for you at a certain time, right?

00:12:00.508 --> 00:12:03.868

Or at a certain instance as you're having a certain textual experience.

00:12:04.378 --> 00:12:05.668

But I'll start with identity.

00:12:05.668 --> 00:12:11.008

So again, this is usually boiled down to just mean race or ethnicity, but we have to think more broadly.

00:12:11.008 --> 00:12:14.398

So again, gender identity sometimes is brought into that conversation.

00:12:14.678 --> 00:12:17.348

We might also think about students' linguistic identities.

00:12:17.378 --> 00:12:22.208

There are a lot of different ways that we identify with certain categories.

00:12:22.288 --> 00:12:29.488

I use Stuart Hall's definition of identity or his conceptualization of identity, thinking of the way in which we identify.

00:12:29.883 --> 00:12:31.713

With certain categories of difference.

00:12:31.713 --> 00:12:37.893

So how we situate ourselves amidst the ways in which we are categorized by others in many instances.

00:12:37.893 --> 00:12:41.883

So for example, if you are white, how do you identify with whiteness?

00:12:41.883 --> 00:12:45.783

How do you identify with your white identity for children who are black identified?

00:12:46.178 --> 00:12:48.908

Is it, are they more, are they African American?

00:12:48.938 --> 00:12:50.588

Do they have African ancestry?

00:12:50.588 --> 00:12:51.548

Are they from the Caribbean?

00:12:51.548 --> 00:12:54.738

There are a lot of complexities to who to whom these children are.

00:12:55.048 --> 00:12:58.668

But also thinking about the way in which their identity may shift over time.

00:12:58.668 --> 00:13:00.288

So identity is not static.

00:13:00.288 --> 00:13:03.618

There is no essence to who we are as individuals.

00:13:03.768 --> 00:13:13.628

That shifts as we grow, as we change, as we move to different locations, as we surround ourselves by different people and different contexts, different cultures, we start to see ourselves differently.

00:13:13.828 --> 00:13:18.988

Based upon the way in which we are seen by others, and that's something that we have to think about as well.

00:13:19.378 --> 00:13:21.808

So for example that will lead me into my other dimension.

00:13:21.808 --> 00:13:23.128

So thinking about Spatiality.

00:13:23.128 --> 00:13:34.788

So for many of my boys the boys in my city, when they were in fourth grade, fifth grade for my book project, they were at an all boys school that was focused on, really focused on their identities as young men of color.

00:13:34.788 --> 00:13:39.558

And these were mostly black Latina, south Asian boys who were at the school where I'd started doing my research.

00:13:39.953 --> 00:13:47.773

And so they really focused on yes, their identities as young men, but also as young men who were on a certain trajectory.

00:13:47.933 --> 00:13:51.173

They were identified as bright boys from low income backgrounds.

00:13:51.173 --> 00:13:56.313

So class was a large part of how their, that space was conceptualized for them.

00:13:56.313 --> 00:13:57.753

So class identity is another.

00:13:57.993 --> 00:14:08.283

Thing that we often overlook in school context, but also thinking about what happened to those young men when they started in this place that was so supportive of their identities as young men of color.

00:14:08.283 --> 00:14:11.583

And then they went, many of them went into predominantly white institutions.

00:14:11.883 --> 00:14:15.273

So Spatiality really played into what they found relevant.

00:14:15.433 --> 00:14:32.293

So in the first school context, I think they are, they were, some of them would say race didn't matter in terms of what they found relevant because they were reading so many books

from so many cultures and so many different, even even though they were an all boys school, they were reading books about women and feminist texts, and they found them relevant.

00:14:32.293 --> 00:14:37.753

'cause they, they would say things like, well, I'm a boy and I don't understand girls, so I need to hear their stories and learn about them.

00:14:38.413 --> 00:14:39.703

So I would say that.

00:14:40.948 --> 00:14:48.478

Space really allowed them in that instance, to broaden, to have a real expansive understanding of what was relevant and what could be.

00:14:48.538 --> 00:14:53.698

And then when they went into predominantly white institutions, many of them were like, okay, I can't read anymore.

00:14:53.748 --> 00:14:55.218

You know, I can't read the Odyssey again.

00:14:55.248 --> 00:14:56.538

I can't read Be Wolf again.

00:14:56.538 --> 00:15:00.618

I am so tired of reading text authored by white male writers.

00:15:00.618 --> 00:15:05.088

I need to go find books about, you know, written by black authors that feature black characters.

00:15:05.088 --> 00:15:05.748

So then.

00:15:06.093 --> 00:15:07.863

Relevance for them shifted yet again.

00:15:07.863 --> 00:15:20.133

So even, for example, if they were someone who was really into nonfiction, they would push themselves out of their reading genre comfort zone to go find topics that reflected who they were as black young men, for instance.

00:15:20.403 --> 00:15:24.303

So space mattered, but it's not just you know, a certain location.

00:15:24.303 --> 00:15:26.403

It might be you know, where you are.

00:15:26.453 --> 00:15:28.343

It could be where you are geographically.

00:15:28.463 --> 00:15:29.363

It could be a mental.

00:15:29.538 --> 00:15:30.228

Space too.

00:15:30.228 --> 00:15:38.628

So what kind of space is created, so it's not just the physical location, but what's the, you know, the culture, the dynamic, what's happened?

00:15:38.628 --> 00:15:43.158

How has that space been imbued with meaning as McKitrick would talk about in her work?

00:15:43.818 --> 00:15:45.858

So then that leads me to temporality.

00:15:46.553 --> 00:15:48.863

Which is all the aspects of time.

00:15:48.863 --> 00:15:52.733

So it might be what's going on politically at a certain point in time.

00:15:52.733 --> 00:16:06.153

So what's happening now in 2026 versus what was happening in 2016 versus what was happening in 2008 when I first started speaking to some of the young men about politics and you know, who was gonna be elected as president or who could be.

00:16:06.643 --> 00:16:08.533

How old they were at a certain time.

00:16:08.533 --> 00:16:14.383

So talking to them at 12 versus 22 to, you know, maybe if I talk to them again when they're 32.

00:16:14.483 --> 00:16:17.603

Or as I do in many, they are about 30, 31, 32 now.

00:16:17.603 --> 00:16:22.373

And I have been in touch with some of them and have heard how relevance has shifted for them.

00:16:22.373 --> 00:16:25.803

So time and how that shifts things, a same thing.

00:16:25.803 --> 00:16:27.873

It'll shift their identities as well.

00:16:27.933 --> 00:16:30.603

And so that's why these di dimensions intersect.

00:16:30.603 --> 00:16:32.463

And then the last one is ideology.

00:16:32.788 --> 00:16:36.208

So what is your framework of thought for viewing the larger world?

00:16:36.208 --> 00:16:53.348

So, again, there are many scholars like j Henry, J like, like Stewart Hall, like, Michael Apple, who really talk about ideology and education, but really thinking about ideologies that work in service of empowerment, as well as in disempowerment.

00:16:53.348 --> 00:16:57.728

So the way in which young people can position themselves as thinking about, okay.

00:16:58.233 --> 00:17:09.183

The ideology in this book either matches with mine or this is an ideology against which I do not, you know, I against which I'm going to fight or argue, and I'm going to resist this ideology.

00:17:09.183 --> 00:17:12.963

So it's not just a text that aligns a hundred percent with where they are.

00:17:12.963 --> 00:17:14.973

They might see it applicable to their life because.

00:17:15.398 --> 00:17:22.178

Maybe they're a scholar and they need to take up a counter argument so they find something that's, that has ideological misalignment, and then they start from there.

00:17:22.178 --> 00:17:29.798

So, sorry, this is a really long description of each of these dimensions, but you know, each one of those is a chapter in the book, so it's kind of hard to talk about them in brief.

00:17:29.798 --> 00:17:31.363

So I hope that, that at least.

00:17:31.721 --> 00:17:33.311

Erin Bailey: no, it was fantastic.

00:17:33.461 --> 00:17:37.521

I do wanna pull on one thread because it comes lot right now.

00:17:37.711 --> 00:17:52.021

In today's climate and that is around ideology and without getting political, and you did such a nice job of framing this, why is it important to read books that don't align perfectly with your ideology?

00:17:52.021 --> 00:17:56.271

And maybe what are, what is some of the feedback that from these students

00:17:56.271 --> 00:17:56.631

about

00:17:56.631 --> 00:17:57.081

that?

00:17:57.183 --> 00:18:00.003

Katie Sciurba: Well, so that's, they have mixed thoughts about it.

00:18:00.003 --> 00:18:12.423

So many of them would read things like, for example, white Man's Burden in middle school, and they were thinking about like how it aligned with other ideologies, such as colonialism and things of that nature or racism.

00:18:12.423 --> 00:18:12.813

And so they were.

00:18:13.268 --> 00:18:25.808

Were able to take an ideology that they did not necessarily agree with, and they were able to see how it was important to history, what that meant for them, for their identities as young men of color, what it meant for the countries many of them were from.

00:18:25.808 --> 00:18:34.848

So for the young men in my study who were first generation Indian American to think about colonialism in India based on many of the texts they were reading in class.

00:18:34.848 --> 00:18:37.878

So they were reading things that were problematic in many ways.

00:18:38.108 --> 00:18:39.848

At least, you know, from their perspective.

00:18:40.238 --> 00:18:48.668

But it was important for them to see one, how other people think in the world, that not everybody's going to think they way the way they do now in this current moment.

00:18:48.668 --> 00:18:55.818

So they needed to see some of that early thought that really contributed to large political movements global powers, right?

00:18:56.088 --> 00:19:00.978

So it was important for them to even, you know, to kind of take some steps back and trace.

00:19:01.118 --> 00:19:16.708

The way people's thinking ha has evolved on certain topics and I think in terms of reading things that don't agree, that you don't agree with

ideologically, I think it's important just to know what perspectives are out there, what alternative perspectives are out there so you can really see.

00:19:16.738 --> 00:19:18.208

Okay, one, there might be a thread.

00:19:18.723 --> 00:19:23.603

There might be a thread in their argument that has some truth in it that you can get behind.

00:19:23.603 --> 00:19:34.163

That you might be like, okay, I understand where they're coming from here, but their approach to it, their response to it may be different, but I think it's important to see where if anywhere you can find comic.

00:19:34.193 --> 00:19:44.513

Common ground with ideological perspectives that are different from yours, but also to not just discount them, we can't just say, I don't agree with that because they have this worldview, they are this religion.

00:19:44.513 --> 00:19:46.853

They are, they believe this about gender.

00:19:46.883 --> 00:19:53.933

So I don't believe anything that they say, we have to read what they say or hear what they say first before we can even make that assessment.

00:19:54.233 --> 00:19:58.043

So I think that's what I tend to see now, is that there's a tendency to shut down.

00:19:58.093 --> 00:20:06.598

The conversation to take things out that might have you know, an ideology that is seen as being a propaganda in some way.

00:20:06.598 --> 00:20:17.313

But I think that we need to teach young readers and writers and thinkers to really see how they can push back against ideologies to develop their own ways of thinking about the world.

00:20:17.313 --> 00:20:21.758

So they're not ever going to encounter somebody who thinks a hundred percent the way that they do.

00:20:22.468 --> 00:20:32.378

And that's just a really good lesson in life to think about what perspectives are out there and how am I going to insert my voice amidst these other conversations that are happening.

00:20:33.823 --> 00:20:34.453

Erin Bailey: Thank you for that.

00:20:34.918 --> 00:20:35.548

Appreciate it.

00:20:35.548 --> 00:20:44.478

It's almost like you can take the four dimensions that you've defined and use that as an approach to reading something, especially something that you may be apprehensive about.

00:20:44.478 --> 00:20:49.578

So you taking for context your own identity the identity the author.

00:20:49.728 --> 00:21:01.488

The space and time in which you live and the space and time in which the work was written, you know, the con, the context and then use that to think about the ideology and the writing and how that might fit in with

00:21:01.488 --> 00:21:01.848

your own

00:21:01.848 --> 00:21:02.538

ideology.

00:21:02.850 --> 00:21:02.985

Katie Sciurba: percent.

00:21:03.495 --> 00:21:04.095

Exactly.

00:21:04.095 --> 00:21:13.065

And one of the things that I'm, I've thought about I, I talk about it in brief in my book, but I think it's something that I'm continuing to think more about is how do we make texts.

00:21:13.065 --> 00:21:15.635

Relevant to certain to young readers, right?

00:21:15.635 --> 00:21:15.875

And so.

00:21:16.750 --> 00:21:36.620

One of the things that I think I would hate to see is that we just take things that are right now relevant in their current time and space, and we just kind of stop there rather than

actually try to help them see how, for example, alternative perspectives things that don't agree with them, that don't have ideological alignment with the, with their own ideologies.

00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:51.800

To just discount those texts entirely rather than give them a chance, an opportunity to see, okay, it may not match the way you think, it may not match your identity, but how could the, what does this say about the world that's important for you to know as.

00:21:51.965 --> 00:21:56.915

You know, whatever identity category you belong to and are feeling, you know, that you identify with most.

00:21:57.275 --> 00:22:08.405

So I think that's the way that we have to approach relevance is thinking about how can we actually help young people see that these texts have meaning or can have meaning in their lives, right?

00:22:08.405 --> 00:22:10.010

Even if they don't see the connection right away.

00:22:11.417 --> 00:22:12.737

Erin Bailey: Very important right now.

00:22:13.367 --> 00:22:20.597

So let's think about teachers and the context and events that they're facing in their lives right now.

00:22:20.597 --> 00:22:28.127

Many of them feel tension between delivering standards based instruction, but also making literacy relevant to their students' lives.

00:22:28.277 --> 00:22:33.977

What are some practical strategies that you've learned from your work that can help teachers navigate this tension?

00:22:34.124 --> 00:22:41.354

Katie Sciurba: So we are in, there is a lot of tension out there right now, especially I feel like anything to do with reading is really a hot topic.

00:22:41.384 --> 00:22:41.684

No matter what's.

00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:43.009

Side, you're on, right?

00:22:43.009 --> 00:22:44.239

Everybody's got an opinion.

00:22:44.609 --> 00:22:52.889

And I think one of the things that, that happens in schools is that there's a lot of fear around what you can and can't say what you can and can't introduce to your kids.

00:22:52.889 --> 00:22:55.529

And I think that's very troubling.

00:22:55.579 --> 00:23:06.839

It, and it's sad to me because I think that there is so much potential, again, into bringing books that even I am not, you know, a fan of ban banning books as many people who know me well can attest to.

00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:09.249

But I would say one.

00:23:10.169 --> 00:23:12.899

Any kind of reading is going to meet the standards.

00:23:12.929 --> 00:23:13.919

Anything that you do.

00:23:13.919 --> 00:23:18.999

So I'm a big fan, I'm a big proponent of bringing trade books into classroom spaces as much as possible.

00:23:19.479 --> 00:23:26.109

But what's happening I think, is that a lot of teachers are being mandated to use more of a scripted curriculum, right?

00:23:26.109 --> 00:23:33.409

So they have to use texts that are part of a larger, program or they have to use curriculum that's kind of laid out for them.

00:23:33.459 --> 00:23:34.599

Sometimes on a weekly basis.

00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:36.519

I'm seeing that quite a bit here in Georgia.

00:23:36.789 --> 00:23:40.959

So what I encourage my teachers to do is to give their kids opportunities to read, right?

00:23:40.959 --> 00:23:45.429

So they, they often, there's usually space for the kids to drop everything and read.

00:23:45.429 --> 00:23:48.309

So the kids have opportunities to select their own books.

00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:53.709

So I encourage teachers to have books available in the classroom, one to do an inventory with.

00:23:53.934 --> 00:23:54.774

Their own students.

00:23:54.774 --> 00:23:57.324

So what kind of books do they find most relevant to their lives?

00:23:57.324 --> 00:24:07.044

And obviously I encourage my own students to write their own inventories, that kind of, that at least capture some degree, all the different aspects of the dimensions of relevance.

00:24:07.104 --> 00:24:10.764

And then to give that to their kids, or even just ask their kids informally.

00:24:10.764 --> 00:24:13.594

And then to have those books available or take the kids to the library so they can.

00:24:13.834 --> 00:24:17.464

Find books that will, you know, e encourage them to read.

00:24:17.464 --> 00:24:18.754

That's the most important thing.

00:24:19.204 --> 00:24:26.894

I think that no one will argue that it's a bad idea to get kids to read, but what they will say is that it's a bad idea to get them to read some things.

00:24:27.194 --> 00:24:29.564

So, but what I would say is that.

00:24:30.054 --> 00:24:42.414

The most important thing we can do as educators is to get kids to find joy in the process of reading and writing, and that those two things are interrelated and there as, as challenging as it is.

00:24:42.414 --> 00:24:45.464

I think there are ways to, you know, maybe give notes to your parents.

00:24:45.964 --> 00:24:55.594

And ask the parents to do certain things at home, make resources available to families so that they can go find books and they can read them at home if they aren't allowed to teach certain texts in the classroom.

00:24:56.014 --> 00:24:59.794

So I think that's one way that you can do it, but it is we are in challenging times.

00:24:59.794 --> 00:25:02.434

I'm, I, it's, there's no real way to sugarcoat that.

00:25:02.714 --> 00:25:05.324

And I think that I do I work with teachers a lot.

00:25:05.324 --> 00:25:11.264

I am a former teacher and, you know, at the height of No Child Left Behind restrictions where we could not.

00:25:11.879 --> 00:25:13.679

Do or say certain things.

00:25:13.769 --> 00:25:16.709

And so I relate very strongly.

00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:24.869

And so I do think that you know, there are, there's always a way to, to find a, there's always a way to find joy in literacy.

00:25:24.869 --> 00:25:29.099

And we just have to figure out, we have to be creative in many instances and how to do that.

00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:36.989

How do we get the books and literacy activities into those spaces even when it feels impossible and find.

00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.889

You'll find comradery in other educators and see how they're maneuvering right now.

00:25:43.843 --> 00:25:57.220

Erin Bailey: And that, that I wanna highlight one thing that you said because it's something that I learned from you in our class together, and that is you really you know, with some exceptions, but you really can teach any standard with any book.

00:25:57.750 --> 00:26:04.920

Of co. If you think about common core standards or whatever standards your state is using now, there's a difference between informational text and literature text.

00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:05.370

Sure.

00:26:05.610 --> 00:26:09.240

But it's more about your craft and creativity as a teacher.

00:26:09.390 --> 00:26:16.260

But that was what I learned from you when you introduced backwards design and backwards planning, is you can do a lot of things with one book.

00:26:16.260 --> 00:26:26.520

So certainly if you're not required to use a scripted curriculum or if you have opportunities to use both the curriculum that's provided with for you as well as.

00:26:26.620 --> 00:26:28.810

Supplementing with some of your own materials.

00:26:29.020 --> 00:26:37.510

You can provide student choice, you can use a interest inventory, which RIF has one of those, and I'll link it in the show notes for anybody in that.

00:26:37.840 --> 00:26:47.200

Even, you know, giving students choice in, okay, we, we have this lesson for today, here are three books that I can use to teach this lesson or next week.

00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.113

You know, if you're someone who in advance, one do you wanna use?

00:26:50.143 --> 00:26:51.343

very choice, is a very

00:26:51.343 --> 00:26:51.913

powerful

00:26:52.315 --> 00:26:53.125

Katie Sciurba: Absolutely.

00:26:53.125 --> 00:26:58.600

And one of the things that you are reminding me of is that you know, right now when I in a school, you know, local.

00:26:59.125 --> 00:27:00.715

Here that's using a scripted curriculum.

00:27:00.745 --> 00:27:04.945

They are talking about birds, and that's part of what the kids, the lesson is all around birds.

00:27:04.945 --> 00:27:07.135

So I was invited to come in and read with the kids.

00:27:07.135 --> 00:27:14.265

So I found, I chose two books about birds and one is called My Beautiful Birds and it's about a Syrian refugee family.

00:27:14.265 --> 00:27:18.725

And it's about a young boy who's a sad that his birds were left behind as they had to flee their home.

00:27:18.725 --> 00:27:20.075

So that's one of the texts that I read.

00:27:20.075 --> 00:27:26.645

And the kids made these little puppets with beautiful birds that they were allowed to color and they put on popsicle sticks and they could flap the wings.

00:27:26.850 --> 00:27:31.560

And then another text was just the let, don't let the pigeon stay up late book.

00:27:31.560 --> 00:27:39.890

And so we had little sheets where the kids could write use the speech bubble to write an excuse that the pigeon was getting was giving to be able to stay up late.

00:27:39.890 --> 00:27:40.730

So we paired.

00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:52.550

You know, more, I paired more of a serious book that's based on a true story with one that's totally fictional and crazy and they were equally fun and the kids were equally engaged and it tied to the curriculum that exists that is about birds.

00:27:52.550 --> 00:27:54.380

So I was very proud of that lesson.

00:27:54.590 --> 00:27:54.890

You know,

00:27:54.890 --> 00:27:57.190

I felt like I came home and I told my husband, I still got it.

00:27:57.190 --> 00:27:58.420

I can still work with kids.

00:27:58.870 --> 00:28:01.720

So, you know, I have, that's one thing I've tried to do too, is just.

00:28:02.150 --> 00:28:07.020

This is the first probably year where I haven't worked with kids formally since I became a professor.

00:28:07.020 --> 00:28:15.140

I've always tried to maintain at least some kind of a connection to classroom space with, you know, running the literacy clinics and things like that.

00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:26.230

I've always worked directly with children myself so that I can really try to think creatively about how to address the standards just as my teachers are having to do that in school spaces right now.

00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:43.270

Erin Bailey: That is such a wonderful practice, and I hope anyone who works in higher education who is listening to this will take that back

to their department because having professors regularly in classrooms, interacting with children, seeing the teachers that they're training.

00:28:43.445 --> 00:28:50.705

Work in classrooms, I think creates a great feedback loop into what you are teaching in your university classroom.

00:28:50.705 --> 00:29:00.425

Because what we don't want is this disconnect between what we're learning in university classrooms and then what teachers are actually doing in their own classrooms.

00:29:01.560 --> 00:29:02.025

Katie Sciurba: Oh yeah.

00:29:02.025 --> 00:29:08.975

I mean, I think that the, one of the, my favorite parts of teaching teachers or future teachers is to bring in the activities I do with the kids.

00:29:08.975 --> 00:29:10.385

So to bring in pictures.

00:29:10.745 --> 00:29:20.960

Of the activities my kids create or the, you know, my the little kids that I get to work with create, or even just to talk through my planning process or to talk through things that don't go well.

00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:21.320

Right.

00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:22.340

They can help me troubleshoot.

00:29:22.340 --> 00:29:23.780

Like, oh, these are some things I've tried.

00:29:23.780 --> 00:29:24.920

They didn't go as planned.

00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:26.630

Let's talk about that.

00:29:26.810 --> 00:29:31.700

You know, it was my first time doing it and it, you know, you're not gonna get it right every time, 20 years working with kids.

00:29:31.700 --> 00:29:33.330

And I still will miss the mark.

00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:35.310

So.

00:29:36.325 --> 00:29:38.385

Erin Bailey: I'm gonna hold up the book one more time.

00:29:39.455 --> 00:29:52.925

Reading and relevance reimagined, and if you're just listening to the podcast, I'll include it below in the show notes, but I have to

ask you, Dr. Sheba, I know the background story behind the cover artwork, but I'm sure our listeners would love to hear it from you.

00:29:54.395 --> 00:29:56.615

Katie Sciurba: Oh, this is a fun story.

00:29:56.615 --> 00:30:15.615

So John Jennings is a phenomenal artist and he and I met at the San Diego Festival of Books several years ago and he happened to have illustrated my husband's book cover, which is on black vampires, the paradox of blackness in African American vampire fiction.

00:30:15.945 --> 00:30:17.455

So, we happen to meet him.

00:30:17.925 --> 00:30:19.395

And then we had lunch with him there.

00:30:19.425 --> 00:30:24.905

And when it came time to my book getting accepted, I was like, oh my gosh, I really want John to do the cover.

00:30:24.905 --> 00:30:26.405

And he amazingly agreed.

00:30:26.405 --> 00:30:28.835

I can't even believe he said yes to me to this day.

00:30:29.265 --> 00:30:32.775

And so the picture that you see on the cover is actually my.

00:30:32.885 --> 00:30:38.285

Son, who was 12 years old at the time, which was the exact same age as the boys in my study.

00:30:38.585 --> 00:30:48.650

And so he was really able to, what I, how I describe it, is that he turned my son into a reading superhero on the cover of the book and to capture the elements.

00:30:49.125 --> 00:30:50.625

That the young men talked about.

00:30:50.625 --> 00:30:55.225

So he really listened to my description of the book and the different dimensions.

00:30:55.225 --> 00:31:02.585

So you see the time piece, you'll see film, you'll see the, you know, the text and the empowerment with the fists in the air, the black power fist.

00:31:02.585 --> 00:31:06.305

So all the things that the young men talked about being important to their reading practices.

00:31:06.675 --> 00:31:10.160

Are, I feel like reflected very nicely on, on the cover there.

00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:11.690

So, yes, look up John Jennings.

00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:12.560

He's incredible.

00:31:12.610 --> 00:31:18.370

He's a professor at uc Riverside right now, but you can often catch him at Comic-Con or some of the other conventions.

00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:21.100

So I highly recommend that you look up his work.

00:31:21.175 --> 00:31:25.135

Erin Bailey: I'll include it in the show notes too, if anyone's interested in his work.

00:31:25.135 --> 00:31:35.390

But I mean, it's such a beautiful story and perfect example of how reading is also relevant to you and your son, who is 12 years old, the same age as.

00:31:35.835 --> 00:31:42.645

The boys that you worked with at the beginning of your study and that he's on this cover now, and it really brings it full circle.

00:31:43.045 --> 00:31:48.695

so we always end the show by asking, guess what does reading inspire for you?

00:31:50.152 --> 00:31:51.892

Katie Sciurba: Well, it inspires a lot.

00:31:51.892 --> 00:32:01.632

I mean, I feel like I live and breathe reading and writing, and I think that the thing that inspires most for me is really is this notion of criticality.

00:32:01.847 --> 00:32:06.932

But I think that reading offers you opportunities to expand your world.

00:32:06.982 --> 00:32:14.512

In very interesting ways to look critically at the world in which you are currently existing, but also to imagine new possibilities.

00:32:14.512 --> 00:32:24.172

And so no matter what kind of text you read, I think that you have, you are afforded the opportunity to do that, and it can be really a powerful experience.

00:32:24.172 --> 00:32:30.532

So for no matter what age you are, I think that it's something that you'll always have, you'll always be able to do, and it's an important skill to have.

00:32:31.562 --> 00:32:31.922

Erin Bailey: Thank you.

00:32:32.282 --> 00:32:38.972

And I don't know about you, but I think the word critical is a little scary to some folks right now.

00:32:38.972 --> 00:32:43.772

But I love the way you laid it out in that everyone should be critical.

00:32:43.952 --> 00:32:48.242

It's not a scary or a negative thing, it's something that we do.

00:32:48.242 --> 00:32:51.872

It's the lens that we take as we're navigating our day to day lives.

00:32:51.872 --> 00:32:54.062

And it's okay to be critical readers too.

00:32:55.147 --> 00:32:56.827

Katie Sciurba: Absolutely a hundred percent.

00:32:56.827 --> 00:32:58.027

We should be critical readers.

00:32:58.027 --> 00:32:59.467

We should be critical of everything, right?

00:32:59.527 --> 00:33:01.327

Never accept anything at face value.

00:33:02.537 --> 00:33:04.757

Erin Bailey: Thank you so much Dr. Katie Sheba.

00:33:04.757 --> 00:33:11.447

It was such an honor having you on the show and thank you all for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.

00:33:11.627 --> 00:33:13.037

I hope today's conversation's.

00:33:13.052 --> 00:33:16.832

Sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading.

00:33:16.952 --> 00:33:25.412

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with a fellow literacy champion, and join us next time as we continue exploring what reading inspires.