Reciprocal Teaching Strategies that Boost Comprehension with Lori Oczkus
In this episode, Erin Bailey interviews literacy expert Lori Oczkus about reciprocal teaching and the “Fab Four” comprehension strategies—predicting, questioning, clarifying, and summarizing—which she has adapted into an engaging, student-friendly approach. Lori explains how gradual release, strong modeling, and purposeful student discussion help make these research-based strategies effective across grade levels and content areas. The conversation highlights the strong evidence supporting reciprocal teaching, including its high ranking in John Hattie’s meta-analysis and documented gains of up to two years of reading growth in a single year, along with real-world success stories from schools and intervention programs. Together, they emphasize the roles of choice, metacognition, and alignment with the science of reading in strengthening both comprehension and writing skills, ultimately fostering students’ confidence, motivation, and joy in reading.
About Lori Oczkus:
Lori Oczkus is a literacy coach, author, and popular speaker across the United States. Tens of thousands of teachers have attended her motivating, fast paced workshops and read her practical, research-based professional books. Lori has extensive experience as a bilingual elementary teacher, intervention specialist working with struggling readers, and staff developer and literacy coach. She works with students in classrooms and knows the challenges that teachers face in teaching students to read!
Lori's best selling books on comprehension and literacy have been featured in the Reading Teacher journal. The third edition of Reciprocal Teaching at Work: Strategies for Improving Reading Comprehension foreword by John Hattie (ASCD, 2018 book and video) features 40 new lessons and is endorsed by many noted reading experts including Donalyn Miller, Tim Rasinski, Doug Fisher, and Regie Routman. Lori has been inducted into the California Reading Hall of Fame for her many contributions to literacy in California and internationally.
Subscribe and listen on Apple podcasts
-
WEBVTT
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript00:00:00.413 --> 00:00:01.093
Erin Bailey: Welcome.00:00:01.093 --> 00:00:07.303
I'm sitting down with Lori Ocus today, and I've known Lori for a couple of years now.00:00:07.303 --> 00:00:12.763
I first reached out to her because as a first grade teacher, I was a huge fan of the Fab four.00:00:12.763 --> 00:00:17.623
I used it with my students during small groups and during read alouds, and so I thought.00:00:17.898 --> 00:00:22.578
I will reach out to Lori and we've been partnering on projects ever since then.00:00:22.578 --> 00:00:23.628
It's been lovely.00:00:23.628 --> 00:00:30.918
So welcome, Lori, and I thought you could start by sharing a little bit about your background and how you got into teaching and literacy.00:00:31.923 --> 00:00:33.093
Lori Oczkus: Well, thank you Erin.00:00:33.093 --> 00:00:34.833
I'm really excited to be here.00:00:35.473 --> 00:00:42.013
That was, that's kind of an interesting question, and all of you that are listening maybe can think about your own experience.00:00:42.013 --> 00:00:46.063
How did you get into, you know, working with kids in literacy?00:00:46.063 --> 00:00:56.233
Or why did you, I think for me, I always wanted to be a teacher or a, or actually the other cha choice that I had in my mind was a talk show hostess.00:00:57.433 --> 00:01:03.793
I'm one of those kids that would, would not go to sleep when I went to bed and I lined up all my toys and, and had a talk show.00:01:04.843 --> 00:01:10.003
And I kind of have the best of both worlds because now I do PD and I'm a teacher.00:01:10.003 --> 00:01:14.563
So I remember in college trying to decide journalism or do I wanna teach?00:01:14.563 --> 00:01:23.263
And I went back and forth and I ended up with teaching and I'm so glad I did because it has been the most fabulous career ever and literacy.00:01:23.688 --> 00:01:30.078
I got into literacy because, you know, I think, first of all, I'm a writing teacher.00:01:30.078 --> 00:01:31.908
I was a writing teacher in my own classroom.00:01:31.908 --> 00:01:34.548
I always felt like I didn't really know what I was doing teaching, reading.00:01:34.818 --> 00:01:45.498
When I started out, I was borrowing from the teacher next door and asking questions and, but writing, I always felt comfortable as a writer, myself, as a writer, as a child.00:01:45.498 --> 00:01:49.758
Wrote a lot of poetry and have, still have a little journal I wrote in.00:01:49.908 --> 00:01:52.278
So I started as a writer and then.00:01:52.903 --> 00:01:56.263
I tell people my reading journey is very kind of sad.00:01:56.753 --> 00:01:58.823
I didn't really read much as a kid.00:01:58.823 --> 00:02:00.593
We didn't have very many books.00:02:00.623 --> 00:02:08.093
My mother grew up in the projects and in poverty, and so did my dad, and they didn't really know about having books in the home that much.00:02:08.403 --> 00:02:11.013
But they did take us to the book Mobile.00:02:12.378 --> 00:02:14.688
Which would be reading is fundamental.00:02:14.928 --> 00:02:16.548
So thank you for that.00:02:16.548 --> 00:02:20.898
I remember checking out books and the smell of it and everything else, just loving it.00:02:21.258 --> 00:02:25.498
So as a child I became hooked on reading, really thanks to you.00:02:26.068 --> 00:02:28.348
And reading is fundamental and book mobiles.00:02:28.858 --> 00:02:36.208
And then I became a more of a reader when I married into a family of readers where, you know, my husband's family just, they read.00:02:36.418 --> 00:02:39.448
Constantly and that really promoted me to read.00:02:39.448 --> 00:02:41.458
'cause I think a lot of adults don't read.00:02:41.998 --> 00:02:47.878
You know, you might read when you're a kid, but I became an adult reader on my honeymoon, which is pretty funny.00:02:47.878 --> 00:02:48.538
People say what?00:02:48.538 --> 00:02:50.398
I said, well, I'm married into a family.00:02:50.638 --> 00:02:51.268
I'm readers.00:02:52.288 --> 00:02:52.978
Erin Bailey: I love that.00:02:52.978 --> 00:02:53.818
Thank you, Laurie.00:02:53.818 --> 00:03:01.138
It, I mean, and that just illustrates the importance of book access, creating a culture of literacy and reading at home.00:03:01.138 --> 00:03:03.178
All the things that you highlighted is what?00:03:03.508 --> 00:03:08.098
We as reading as fundamental want for the children that, that we work with.00:03:08.098 --> 00:03:09.328
So I I love that.00:03:09.328 --> 00:03:09.868
Thank you.00:03:10.178 --> 00:03:12.158
So let's talk about reciprocal teaching.00:03:12.158 --> 00:03:16.568
How did you become interested in it and become so passionate about it?00:03:17.438 --> 00:03:25.538
Lori Oczkus: Well reciprocal teaching, which is those of you, I'll define it briefly for those of you that may not know what it is, just so you know what we're talking about.00:03:25.748 --> 00:03:30.368
Reciprocal teaching is a comprehension strategy, discussion technique.00:03:30.623 --> 00:03:32.033
And it's scaffolded.00:03:32.333 --> 00:03:46.073
So it's the discussion that you have with kids and it has four strategies that you use kind of in a circle, and you can kind of switch up whichever one you need, but you predict, question, clarify, and summarize.00:03:46.913 --> 00:03:49.193
So you read a chunk of text with the students.00:03:49.908 --> 00:04:03.018
Then you might have kids turn to a partner and predict what the next part is about, or find a tricky word that was in this part, or ask a question, what are you wondering in this chunk we read?00:04:03.078 --> 00:04:05.178
And then turn to your partner and summarize.00:04:05.388 --> 00:04:09.498
Or you can have kids take jobs, the predictor, the question, or the clarifier.00:04:09.498 --> 00:04:14.177
And the summarizer, which a lot of people totally associate with However.00:04:14.267 --> 00:04:17.267
I have a whole model where we use it for read alouds.00:04:17.297 --> 00:04:20.987
You know, we use it in lots of different ways, and we call it the Fab Four.00:04:21.227 --> 00:04:27.977
The reason why I gave it that nickname years ago is because I thought the name Reciprocal Teaching was kind of a boring name for kids.00:04:28.277 --> 00:04:30.527
That it would be more fun if it had a pep name.00:04:30.737 --> 00:04:33.377
And if you think about the Beatles, the Real Fab Four.00:04:33.782 --> 00:04:37.862
They all had their own separate careers, but when they're together, they're like a power.00:04:37.922 --> 00:04:43.902
They're the powerhouse beginning most famous rock band we can think of, well with the strategies.00:04:43.932 --> 00:04:48.582
Each one is has its own rockstar career, but when they're all together, they're powerful.00:04:48.672 --> 00:04:58.122
How did I get started with this wonderful research based strategy that is evidence-based and I will talk about why it's science of reading as well.00:04:58.967 --> 00:05:03.377
I got interested in it because I knew about it from my undergraduate studies.00:05:03.437 --> 00:05:12.437
I went to University of Northern Colorado and we had been taught about it, so I, it kinda had in the back of my mind as something I may wanna use someday.00:05:12.977 --> 00:05:20.327
And when I switched to fifth grade and I noticed the kids are reading two years below grade level in my bilingual classroom.00:05:21.340 --> 00:05:24.610
I knew that I could rely on it, so I brought it out.00:05:24.910 --> 00:05:30.695
I brought it out for the first time and actually tried it with my students and we were heavy in heavily into.00:05:31.585 --> 00:05:36.265
Cooperative learning at that stage of teaching, and it worked really well.00:05:36.265 --> 00:05:49.805
So, you know, in one of my first classrooms I used it and then from there on out as I became work in literacy coaching and I, now I work with K eight in all over the world, it, it's a strategy I like.00:05:50.015 --> 00:05:51.155
And why do I like it?00:05:51.485 --> 00:05:54.575
Because students don't comprehend.00:05:55.355 --> 00:05:59.975
They often have difficulty, even good readers, even readers that read very fluently.00:05:59.975 --> 00:06:02.675
They can decode, but they cannot comprehend.00:06:03.155 --> 00:06:06.995
You know, there's just a myriad of problems that students have with reading.00:06:07.355 --> 00:06:09.395
They're reading two years below grade level.00:06:09.425 --> 00:06:11.345
They can't find the main idea.00:06:11.975 --> 00:06:14.375
They don't really understand what they've read.00:06:14.375 --> 00:06:17.345
And then there are students that don't know what to do when they're stuck.00:06:17.900 --> 00:06:34.550
So I think it's the problems that I see and that I've seen all along that kids have with reading comprehension that have prompted me to become, you know, really a fan of reciprocal teaching because it is such a strong method and it works.00:06:34.760 --> 00:06:43.160
So I think like a lot of teachers that are listening to this podcast with us, you know, we have students that just struggle with comprehension.00:06:43.910 --> 00:06:45.950
And you're not, people aren't sure what, what?00:06:45.980 --> 00:06:47.840
What can I do to promote that?00:06:48.650 --> 00:06:50.600
Erin Bailey: Yeah, that brings back so many memories.00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:55.730
As I mentioned at our intro, I. Used the Fab four as a first grade teacher.00:06:55.730 --> 00:06:57.410
That's what I knew it as.00:06:57.410 --> 00:07:04.970
I had an anchor chart, which with each of the components, and I even had props, which really brought it to life for the kids.00:07:04.970 --> 00:07:09.650
So for example, the predictor, we had a crystal ball and if a.00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:11.480
Child wanted to make a predictor.00:07:11.660 --> 00:07:17.720
They would do the crystal ball hand motion, and then they'd get to come up and hold the crystal ball and make a prediction.00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.630
You know, we had glasses for the clarifier.00:07:20.820 --> 00:07:27.840
We had a notepad for the summarizer and a microphone for the questionnaire, and it, it was just, it brought it to life for.00:07:28.020 --> 00:07:30.660
The kids and it was so, it was so fun.00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:33.830
But let's talk about the role of the teacher.00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:35.090
What's the teacher doing?00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:43.250
'cause it, you know, my students didn't just appear and know how to ask questions or how to make a prediction.00:07:43.250 --> 00:07:46.770
So what role does the teacher play in reciprocal teaching?00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:46.830
Okay.00:07:48.095 --> 00:07:56.345
Lori Oczkus: You brought up a whole bunch of great points and the teacher has a huge role, but it's the thing I tell people.00:07:56.345 --> 00:08:10.325
About reciprocal teaching is that it is a high yield, which we'll talk about the res research and results in a minute, high yield, low prep strategy that you really just kind of have to learn how to do it.00:08:10.355 --> 00:08:11.715
You don't have a ton of prep.00:08:12.415 --> 00:08:17.285
To do to stand in front of students and, and deliver this, and also also get them engaged.00:08:17.285 --> 00:08:20.105
But gradual release is really key to it.00:08:20.135 --> 00:08:35.085
So for example, if we are conducting a read aloud and the characters, I'm so glad you used them over the years I've presented them I created them working with primary children because when I was doing comprehension think alouds, you go, all right, gonna.00:08:35.310 --> 00:08:39.670
Sunrise eyes now and little kids are, you know, wiggling and everything else.00:08:39.670 --> 00:08:46.270
And I remember sitting in front of a group of second graders and coming up with the four characters all in that spot.00:08:46.270 --> 00:08:50.680
I think our best teaching is when we're in front of children and I was sitting there and I thought.00:08:50.980 --> 00:08:52.990
You know, I wonder if I could have a character for each one.00:08:53.020 --> 00:08:54.010
'cause then I could roll 'em out.00:08:54.010 --> 00:08:55.900
So we do Paula, the predictor.00:08:56.230 --> 00:08:58.350
We do and we rub our crystal ball.00:08:58.350 --> 00:08:59.970
We have gestures to go with it.00:09:00.045 --> 00:09:11.805
and in my think aloud, the role that the characters play is that I can say I can, I'm reading aloud out of a picture book and I will stop on a page and say, I'm making a powerful prediction.00:09:11.925 --> 00:09:16.155
And then I model using my little voice and they think it's cute and clever on their listening.00:09:16.155 --> 00:09:21.735
And I say, I predict that, that she's going to get mad because she did this.00:09:22.005 --> 00:09:29.475
And then I, I have the kids turn to a partner and give their prediction and say, I predict, or I think that, so I give them a stem.00:09:29.745 --> 00:09:32.115
So what is the role of the teacher to model?00:09:32.115 --> 00:09:36.165
Now I have a lot of teachers that say, I'm not doing the characters.00:09:36.165 --> 00:09:36.825
No way.00:09:37.395 --> 00:09:38.175
And it's okay.00:09:38.175 --> 00:09:39.345
You don't have to do those.00:09:39.345 --> 00:09:43.605
Those are an optional scaffolding, you know, tool that you can use.00:09:44.025 --> 00:09:46.135
And then but some teachers love it.00:09:46.135 --> 00:09:48.175
I went to a six 12.00:09:49.615 --> 00:09:53.575
So middle school and high school in London, Glades Moore School.00:09:53.575 --> 00:09:55.165
And guess what?00:09:55.195 --> 00:09:55.825
They were doing?00:09:55.825 --> 00:09:58.195
The characters with their kids.00:09:58.195 --> 00:09:59.455
'cause they're in London, right?00:09:59.455 --> 00:10:03.025
They're acting, but a lot of teachers are going, I don't wanna do that.00:10:03.235 --> 00:10:07.165
Then if you don't wanna do it, then just stop on a page and make a prediction.00:10:07.165 --> 00:10:12.265
Say, I'm gonna show you how to do this, and then right away we turn and talk to a partner.00:10:12.265 --> 00:10:13.915
So what is the role of the teacher?00:10:14.275 --> 00:10:15.775
The role of the teacher is to.00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:18.610
Choose where you're gonna stop and model.00:10:19.660 --> 00:10:25.990
Tell them which strategy you're modeling, model it, and then provide an opportunity.00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:30.310
Release a little bit of responsibility and say, turn to your partner and say.00:10:31.075 --> 00:10:36.925
A tricky word that I need to clarify is, and maybe you write on the board that prompt and the students do the prompt.00:10:36.925 --> 00:10:40.585
So you're actually also providing the bridge and then pulling kids back.00:10:41.125 --> 00:10:45.805
So the other characters in case you want them are Claire Clarifier.00:10:45.805 --> 00:10:49.585
She wears big glasses and she says, I'm cla the clarify, clarify words.00:10:49.585 --> 00:10:51.415
I do not understand darling.00:10:52.075 --> 00:10:54.325
And then she looks for tricky words.00:10:54.850 --> 00:11:02.050
Then I have Quincy, the questioner with his microphone saying, I'm gonna ask questions, okay, to see if you're paying attention.00:11:02.050 --> 00:11:05.800
What's a who question on this page, turn to your partner and make up a who.00:11:05.800 --> 00:11:08.470
But wait, let me make one up first to show you how.00:11:08.740 --> 00:11:13.210
So the teachers that like the characters can use them, the ones that do not wanna do that don't have to.00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:16.720
But you can also show a picture and say, it's kind of like you're a game show host.00:11:17.205 --> 00:11:21.705
Asking a question and just point to the metaphor rather than actually using it.00:11:21.705 --> 00:11:34.505
And in my book I have lots of ideas, which is published by a SCD and ILA and in that book there's a lot of really great you know, forms you can use graphic organizers and ideas.00:11:34.895 --> 00:11:38.525
Then I also have, I'm Sammy this summer, I'm summing up the mean idea.00:11:38.525 --> 00:11:41.285
I'm gonna rope up the mean idea and try to get it right here in my rope.00:11:42.285 --> 00:11:46.395
So the role of the teacher is to pro, present, and I do.00:11:47.055 --> 00:11:48.255
We do.00:11:48.915 --> 00:11:49.935
You do.00:11:50.805 --> 00:11:51.945
So the students do it.00:11:51.945 --> 00:12:04.395
But if you've looked at the work of Fisher and Fray, they have added an updated version, which actually I love because it, it labels it exactly the way that, that I've been doing it.00:12:04.395 --> 00:12:06.195
And that, Erin, I knew you did it.00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:07.545
It goes like this.00:12:08.190 --> 00:12:10.890
I do, the teacher does an example.00:12:10.890 --> 00:12:15.870
So perhaps I choose a piece of text and I make up a question that the students can answer.00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.540
Then we're gonna do a, we do together.00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:31.170
So I'm gonna say, oh, let's find another place we can, let's look at paragraph two and see if we can make up a question to together and turn to your partner and you really telling 'em which paragraph and even how to start the question.00:12:31.680 --> 00:12:36.090
And then there's a, you do together where they do it with.00:12:36.525 --> 00:12:40.755
A friend and they kind of do it on their own together.00:12:41.055 --> 00:12:47.445
And then of course you're gonna have the students go into their notebook and record their own question that they do alone.00:12:47.445 --> 00:12:48.225
So we do it.00:12:48.285 --> 00:12:50.085
You know what I like to say about this, Erin?00:12:50.145 --> 00:12:59.715
It's a big fat We do, like we do in physical teaching, is like you took a balloon and you blow it up and you make it really big.00:13:00.375 --> 00:13:05.715
And as a teacher, you are not only modeling, but you are structuring what goes in the middle.00:13:06.670 --> 00:13:12.315
Lesson lesson so students can talk to one another because it's called reciprocal teaching.00:13:12.315 --> 00:13:13.875
'cause I take a turn.00:13:13.875 --> 00:13:15.195
Finding a tricky word.00:13:15.555 --> 00:13:19.215
Now you take a turn, it's reciprocal back and forth.00:13:19.575 --> 00:13:23.685
And so if students are not talking, it's not reciprocal teaching.00:13:24.465 --> 00:13:30.435
If I were to have students raise their hands and I'm calling on individuals, that's not reciprocal teaching either.00:13:30.795 --> 00:13:34.905
It's the talking to each other even for a second with a partner.00:13:36.060 --> 00:13:40.050
A tricky word or a question is that's the part that's gonna make it happen.00:13:40.770 --> 00:13:41.790
The learning happen.00:13:42.355 --> 00:13:44.545
Erin Bailey: So I've also seen teachers do this.00:13:44.575 --> 00:13:46.285
I mean, we're talking about whole class.00:13:46.285 --> 00:13:50.035
I, like I said, I taught first grade, so we did it during read alouds often.00:13:50.165 --> 00:13:55.520
And that gave a lot of opportunities for that kind of gradual release that you described.00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:13.730
Once they have it, and maybe this happens with older students too, like the six through 12, is it possible to send students off on their own in small
groups to you know, do reciprocal teaching and maybe there it's a group of four and each student takes on a role and they can maybe rotate roles every week?00:14:14.538 --> 00:14:21.213
Lori Oczkus: You know, I, I, I'm gonna say that's really the ideal with, with kids in like third grade and up.00:14:21.713 --> 00:14:22.103
Erin Bailey: Mm-hmm.00:14:22.618 --> 00:14:27.928
Lori Oczkus: We have them put 'em in teams and we can say, you're the predictor, the question or the summarizer?00:14:27.928 --> 00:14:28.708
The clarifier.00:14:28.708 --> 00:14:35.908
You read the chapter together and then each person does their job, and then maybe each student fills out what I call a four door.00:14:36.148 --> 00:14:36.628
So I just.00:14:37.423 --> 00:14:38.803
Made of foldable for them.00:14:39.048 --> 00:14:43.573
They, they make their own foldable and they write on each door, one of the prediction.00:14:43.573 --> 00:14:51.253
They write, predict, they write question, and the students work together either to fill out a graphic organizer that they're gonna share or.00:14:52.918 --> 00:14:54.958
You know, like we'll put, I call it a game board.00:14:54.958 --> 00:15:00.478
We take a piece of construction paper and each child has sticky notes and they put 'em on there.00:15:00.478 --> 00:15:14.518
Let's put our predictions on, let's put our questions or words to clarify in our 10 word summary, because I have what I call a menu of, for each of the four like little quick things that kids can do to make the lesson a little more.00:15:14.618 --> 00:15:16.418
You know, engaging and exciting.00:15:16.638 --> 00:15:24.678
But we can also, but taking kids and just popping 'em into teams right away, I recommend doing that without doing it whole class.00:15:25.068 --> 00:15:33.618
So we do it whole class all the time with read alouds and even with core reading, if you're reading Wonders, whatever your reading series is, we do it whole group.00:15:33.918 --> 00:15:37.248
So we read a little bit of text and then we choose one of the strategies.00:15:38.133 --> 00:15:43.053
And so putting 'em into teams, I think people look on the internet and they see kids working in teams.00:15:43.053 --> 00:15:45.423
Like I, I got, I've got a wild class this year.00:15:45.423 --> 00:15:46.083
I can't do that.00:15:46.083 --> 00:15:48.903
Or I, I don't know how to get kids there.00:15:49.323 --> 00:15:50.583
You don't have to start there.00:15:51.003 --> 00:15:52.293
Even middle schools.00:15:52.353 --> 00:15:55.203
I've been working with Prince George for two years.00:15:55.773 --> 00:16:01.353
We've been working with their special ed in middle school and we put kids in teams, but not in the beginning.00:16:01.353 --> 00:16:10.413
We spend two, two or three months doing whole class lessons and close reading lessons where we, we are taking a text and everyone circles a tricky word.00:16:10.503 --> 00:16:12.813
Then you turn and tell your team your tricky word.00:16:12.813 --> 00:16:14.553
Then the teacher pulls everybody back.00:16:14.583 --> 00:16:14.823
Okay.00:16:14.853 --> 00:16:17.793
Now I'm gonna model how to ask a question on this page.00:16:18.003 --> 00:16:18.843
What I'm wondering.00:16:19.163 --> 00:16:22.823
Now you do it in your paper, then you turn to your partner and your team.00:16:22.973 --> 00:16:27.743
So we do a lot of that sort of back and forth whole group.00:16:28.043 --> 00:16:37.298
Yes, they're talking in teams for a second, but I'm not releasing them for 20 minutes to do a whole four Fab four by themselves until we've done lots of whole group.00:16:37.298 --> 00:16:41.843
And my book, reciprocal Teaching at Work has lots of lessons like that.00:16:41.903 --> 00:16:48.063
And I've also recorded a webinar with you that explains with reading is fundamental that explains.00:16:48.568 --> 00:16:53.593
More in detail how to do those kinds of lessons that lead up to the point where they can be in teams.00:16:53.623 --> 00:16:55.963
And even when they're in teams, Erin, I don't let 'em do it.00:16:55.993 --> 00:16:59.113
Even big kids for longer than about 20 minutes.00:16:59.743 --> 00:17:01.123
'cause things fall apart.00:17:01.273 --> 00:17:04.753
They kind of start, you know, it's like this group says we're done.00:17:05.113 --> 00:17:05.653
You're like, what?00:17:05.658 --> 00:17:05.888
What?00:17:06.283 --> 00:17:06.943
You are done.00:17:06.943 --> 00:17:09.253
And this group is only on the second strategy.00:17:10.243 --> 00:17:11.773
Erin Bailey: Yes, absolutely.00:17:11.963 --> 00:17:22.583
And that for those of you who are listening, I'll make sure that we have everything linked for you in the show notes, like Lori's book, her webinar that she's done before, as well as some of the graphic organizers that you mentioned.00:17:22.583 --> 00:17:26.893
'cause I'm sure everyone will be interested in getting their hands on those too.00:17:27.283 --> 00:17:30.043
So I also wanted to talk about choice.00:17:30.043 --> 00:17:31.813
So we talked a lot about engagement.00:17:31.813 --> 00:17:34.093
That's a pillar of reading is fundamental.00:17:34.483 --> 00:17:36.373
Our, our other pillar is choice.00:17:36.373 --> 00:17:40.968
So does choice play a role in reciprocal teaching and why is it so important?00:17:42.286 --> 00:17:43.726
Lori Oczkus: Does have a big role.00:17:43.966 --> 00:17:56.626
In everything with students and I, I've thought about this 'cause I knew you were gonna ask me this and there are different ways that we use choice with reciprocal teaching, I've used it where we've said, here are the books we're gonna read.00:17:56.626 --> 00:17:58.786
You can choose which book you wanna read.00:17:58.786 --> 00:18:02.026
That's always an a wonderful option with students.00:18:02.326 --> 00:18:10.426
When we can give kids a choice, we can also give them a choice of which strategy they would like to use on a particular page.00:18:10.486 --> 00:18:11.956
I call it, which one do I need?00:18:12.781 --> 00:18:23.821
I will, in the middle of a read aloud a, a very engaging read aloud, I'll stop and say, which one do you need right now, or, which one would you like to use right now?00:18:23.821 --> 00:18:26.191
Would, do you feel like making a prediction on this?00:18:26.461 --> 00:18:26.731
What?00:18:26.731 --> 00:18:28.621
With what we just read, what do you think?00:18:29.596 --> 00:18:32.996
And the students have to tell me which one they want.00:18:33.026 --> 00:18:49.028
One of my favorite readouts, which I believe I showed in your in our webinar that we did for you is I like Deborah de Lee Rose books, and she's done a one a. Whose beak gets shot off and they find it in the wilderness dying because it doesn't have its beak.00:18:49.328 --> 00:18:51.013
And the book is, I've read it to.00:18:52.058 --> 00:18:59.798
Eighth graders, and I've read it with kindergartners, it's, it's one of those few picture books that spans all the grade levels.00:18:59.798 --> 00:19:00.998
And it's so beautiful.00:19:01.358 --> 00:19:07.358
That particular book, I will stop on each page and the kids are in the palm of my hand, and I'll say, turn to your partner.00:19:07.358 --> 00:19:08.018
What did you hear?00:19:08.018 --> 00:19:09.443
And somebody will say, well, I heard the word pre.00:19:10.298 --> 00:19:12.848
One child might say, I wanna clarify a word on that page.00:19:12.848 --> 00:19:13.778
I heard you say preen.00:19:14.018 --> 00:19:19.388
Somebody else might say, I wonder if you know how she could survive for that many days without a beep.00:19:19.418 --> 00:19:20.708
How was she drinking water?00:19:21.308 --> 00:19:24.998
You know, somebody might say, so far, here's what's happened.00:19:25.268 --> 00:19:26.468
And summarize with a partner.00:19:26.468 --> 00:19:35.498
So, giving kids choice and medic, it helps them to keep metacognitive to not always spoonfeed and say, on this page, make a prediction on this page.00:19:35.498 --> 00:19:36.188
Make a summary.00:19:36.368 --> 00:19:38.288
Say, which one do you wanna do on this page?00:19:39.158 --> 00:19:52.268
That's really, really, that's like, oh, you've arrived when, and kids will surprise you and delight you in their choices and their reasons for using different strategies, and they share those with their partners.00:19:53.033 --> 00:19:57.423
Erin Bailey: And I think when you phrase it the way you did, what strategy did you need?00:19:57.783 --> 00:20:02.193
Students still have choice, but it also gives them an opportunity to.00:20:03.123 --> 00:20:09.573
Maybe select one that's not their favorite, because it's not about always what do you like, but it's what do you do?00:20:09.633 --> 00:20:12.603
I, I know my students, they love making predictions.00:20:12.633 --> 00:20:17.863
They loved being Paula, especially with, with the, you know, fortune teller glass.00:20:17.893 --> 00:20:19.063
Yes, exactly.00:20:19.303 --> 00:20:21.763
But that's not always the strategy that you need.00:20:21.763 --> 00:20:22.093
Right?00:20:22.093 --> 00:20:28.453
So phrasing it that way helps students to yes, make a choice, but make the right choice for that page.00:20:29.543 --> 00:20:34.538
Lori Oczkus: Well, and at the end of the lesson, because I like to tell teachers that we're really working on.00:20:35.353 --> 00:20:39.073
Some foundations that will, you are using the four strategies.00:20:39.073 --> 00:20:41.653
You're using all four in one lesson.00:20:42.043 --> 00:20:43.153
That's the other key teachers.00:20:43.153 --> 00:20:44.593
You have to use all four.00:20:44.593 --> 00:20:50.113
In one lesson, I'll have people say, oh, we did predict yesterday in question and today we're doing summarizing, clarify.00:20:50.473 --> 00:20:54.553
You're teaching comprehension, but you are not using reciprocal teaching.00:20:55.093 --> 00:21:04.543
You can do it twice a week and just use these strategies all together like this with a, a given text, whether you choose a poem, you can do it with any kind of text.00:21:05.248 --> 00:21:13.438
Any kind, but as far as choice at the end of the lesson to promote metacognition, I always, always end my lessons with this question.00:21:13.498 --> 00:21:21.718
I will say, turn to your partner and tell which strategy you helped you the most today, or with little kids.00:21:21.718 --> 00:21:24.658
I'll say, which one did you like doing the most?00:21:24.688 --> 00:21:25.978
I even do that with the eighth graders.00:21:25.978 --> 00:21:27.868
Sometimes with that special ed kids we say.00:21:28.423 --> 00:21:29.563
Which one did you like doing the most?00:21:29.563 --> 00:21:29.743
Say?00:21:29.743 --> 00:21:39.853
Oh, I really liked when we each drew our favorite part on a sticky note and everyone took 'em and we put 'em in order to make a summary at our table.00:21:41.308 --> 00:21:43.193
Erin Bailey: That's a fun one, and I also.00:21:44.173 --> 00:21:45.883
Lori Oczkus: Yeah, that's called favorite part summaries.00:21:46.333 --> 00:21:54.613
But they'll say kind of, you know, because I like to attach something fun with each part, they'll often choose what was the most fun.00:21:54.613 --> 00:22:07.753
Like, you know, when I got to use a pretend microphone and, and my charact, my, my partner pretended to be the character from the story, and I ask her a question that was my, that helped me the most.00:22:09.073 --> 00:22:13.573
helping the most is is another way that they get to choose which one and tell why.00:22:13.573 --> 00:22:16.338
And again, it surprises me every single time.00:22:17.353 --> 00:22:25.088
Erin Bailey: And that adds another layer of reflection too at the end to ask what strategy did you like the most, or which was the most helpful?00:22:25.438 --> 00:22:31.198
For you because as you mentioned, it's, it's building those metacognitive skills for the students.00:22:31.618 --> 00:22:33.988
I also appreciated what you said.00:22:34.018 --> 00:22:35.788
There's many levels of choice, right?00:22:35.788 --> 00:22:37.233
It's students choosing, but it's also.00:22:38.053 --> 00:22:39.763
Teach students can choose the text.00:22:39.763 --> 00:22:53.123
Teachers can also choose the text, and that's what I really like about this reciprocal teaching, fitting into the science of reading, because I know many, many teachers right now feel constrained by the curriculum that they have.00:22:53.223 --> 00:22:54.828
Going down to what, which text?00:22:55.203 --> 00:22:57.723
They're gonna be able to teach on which days.00:22:58.053 --> 00:23:07.563
Can you talk about how reciprocal teaching fits into science of reading and how it can be layered on top of curriculum that teachers are already using?00:23:08.399 --> 00:23:13.769
Lori Oczkus: Well, I wanna talk about the layered on topic curriculum first, because if you're listening to this, you wanna.00:23:14.509 --> 00:23:16.724
Oh, I love the sound of reciprocal teaching.00:23:16.724 --> 00:23:21.354
How am I going to fit that in the consulting that I do, really all over the world.00:23:21.354 --> 00:23:25.854
In fact, tonight I'm meeting with a school in Australia that's, that I'm gonna work with for the next year.00:23:26.484 --> 00:23:29.814
And so I get, you know, some people I work with 'em twice, some people a lot.00:23:29.844 --> 00:23:32.544
In, in one of the thing, as I'm working in their school district, is.00:23:32.963 --> 00:23:34.253
What's your reading program?00:23:34.283 --> 00:23:35.333
What are your materials?00:23:35.423 --> 00:23:37.703
And I show them how to do it with their materials.00:23:38.153 --> 00:23:40.853
So Erin, they don't have to run out and buy a kit.00:23:41.093 --> 00:23:44.633
You don't have to buy anything for students to read.00:23:44.633 --> 00:23:47.993
You can use it with Newsela, you can use it with your reading series.00:23:47.993 --> 00:23:50.693
You can use it with science, social studies.00:23:51.773 --> 00:23:54.323
Picture books, even Decodables work.00:23:54.383 --> 00:23:57.143
I've done many lessons with Decodables as well.00:23:57.443 --> 00:24:02.843
It doesn't matter what your reading series is, you can do this and it doesn't take a lot of extra time.00:24:04.193 --> 00:24:09.413
Or training, you know, you just kind of have to watch a few lessons and, and figure out how you're gonna do it.00:24:09.443 --> 00:24:14.923
And you know, I have a lot of resources on my website that people can look at that are free.00:24:14.923 --> 00:24:18.703
And then we, we have our webinar with you and other things that can get them started.00:24:18.703 --> 00:24:22.513
But you do not have to have special materials to do this.00:24:22.963 --> 00:24:26.863
And the other question you had was science of reading, which is really critical.00:24:27.373 --> 00:24:29.263
And right now I'm very busy.00:24:29.263 --> 00:24:29.683
Why?00:24:29.683 --> 00:24:31.843
Because reciprocal teaching is.00:24:32.728 --> 00:24:37.018
It always has been evidence-based and science-based.00:24:37.018 --> 00:24:37.768
What does that mean?00:24:37.768 --> 00:24:43.228
That means that it fits into all the ar, other areas of reading that we have.00:24:43.228 --> 00:24:47.308
Vocabulary phonics, phonemic awareness comprehension is.00:24:48.523 --> 00:24:53.143
Of course the crux, if you're not comprehending, you're not reading well.00:24:53.983 --> 00:24:59.923
There's an article that I referenced on my website and I believe I referenced it.00:24:59.923 --> 00:25:02.713
If I did not, I can pass it to you, Erin.00:25:03.163 --> 00:25:06.763
It's from El Duke and David Pearson.00:25:06.763 --> 00:25:09.013
And Alyssa Ward.00:25:09.448 --> 00:25:19.138
The three of them are comprehension experts and they wrote an article for the International Literacy Association called the Science of Reading Comprehension.00:25:19.408 --> 00:25:21.028
And you know why I am referring to it?00:25:21.028 --> 00:25:29.038
Because they do talk about reciprocal teaching and the power of it and how it is a science-based ev, evidence-based method.00:25:29.338 --> 00:25:32.818
The other thing I will refer to is, is there's lots of research we have.00:25:33.653 --> 00:25:35.693
Tons of research for this method.00:25:35.723 --> 00:25:42.713
Evidence that you can get 0.74, which is just a hair under two years, growth in one year.00:25:42.983 --> 00:25:46.163
And Hattie's work, of course, is the best.00:25:46.163 --> 00:25:50.293
And in, in that area, I know he's got the 800 800 meta-analysis.00:25:50.293 --> 00:26:00.313
And he looked at all the different things that teachers do and what's, what is the impact And reciprocal teaching ends up in his ranking of all the things he looked at, what, a hundred?00:26:00.313 --> 00:26:01.513
It's up to 131.00:26:01.513 --> 00:26:02.293
I think he picked.00:26:03.048 --> 00:26:05.598
This is number nine on his list.00:26:06.408 --> 00:26:20.088
Hadie wrote the forward to my book, John Hattie, which is was a big day in my life because I'm doing all these crazy things with reciprocal teaching, fun, engaging, you know, characters and this and that, and we have.00:26:20.598 --> 00:26:26.178
John had a stamp of approval on it that says this is research based.00:26:26.868 --> 00:26:38.878
Also, we look at, at the results that we get, you know, the school that I'm meeting with tonight I had worked with another school in Australia that was number 14 out of 15 schools at the bottom.00:26:38.943 --> 00:26:40.743
In literacy in their area.00:26:40.743 --> 00:26:45.633
And after three years of reciprocal teaching, they la they landed in their testing at number two.00:26:45.963 --> 00:26:52.563
And this is a school with second language learners with aboriginal kids in there and kids in poverty.00:26:53.493 --> 00:26:56.313
And we did it by using reciprocal teaching.00:26:56.313 --> 00:26:58.143
We did not buy special books.00:26:58.143 --> 00:26:59.913
We used all of their books.00:26:59.973 --> 00:27:00.963
And I'm so proud of that.00:27:00.963 --> 00:27:05.163
And I have many, many school examples that I share in my workshops.00:27:05.968 --> 00:27:10.858
That are just like this, where we made dramatic gains in sometimes in three months.00:27:10.888 --> 00:27:27.238
One time I went into Berkeley, California, inner city school, worked with grades four, five, and six, afterschool intervention for 45 minutes using reciprocal teaching, and I carefully trained each of them and they were paraprofessionals teaching it.00:27:27.763 --> 00:27:34.973
What, which I, I recommend that you get a, a teacher with a certificate, but we didn't have anybody available, so we showed them how to do it.00:27:35.063 --> 00:27:46.073
And in just from November until February, we tested our kids pre and post, and everybody went up two years in their reading level.00:27:46.103 --> 00:27:47.903
And these are all intermediate students.00:27:47.903 --> 00:27:51.533
And I've duplicated this in many, many, many school districts.00:27:51.893 --> 00:27:52.193
Why?00:27:52.193 --> 00:27:54.563
Because reciprocal teaching works.00:27:55.513 --> 00:27:57.123
Erin Bailey: Wow, that's amazing, Laurie.00:27:57.123 --> 00:28:03.213
That, I mean, the results are there and I think the power of it is that you can use reciprocal teaching.00:28:03.763 --> 00:28:05.353
With any text.00:28:05.663 --> 00:28:11.363
And that's why it's a strategy and it's not something that goes away if the text goes away.00:28:11.363 --> 00:28:11.723
Right?00:28:11.903 --> 00:28:23.813
Once a student internalizes it, you know, we talked a lot about metacognition once a student internalizes how to ask themselves questions, how to clarify unknown words, how to make a prediction, how to summarize.00:28:24.378 --> 00:28:27.498
They can use that when they're reading on their own.00:28:27.498 --> 00:28:33.348
It's a strategy that can follow them through their entire reading lives, and that's what makes an impact.00:28:34.503 --> 00:28:38.943
Lori Oczkus: And the other thing you just mentioned, all four and teachers in my book, I show this.00:28:39.753 --> 00:28:45.243
I like to use a circle a lot of times, or you know, there are other, other posters that I have.00:28:45.993 --> 00:28:48.153
But you can use 'em in any order.00:28:48.153 --> 00:28:52.413
Like, let's say you're reading a chapter book with a class, you can start with Sunrise.00:28:52.413 --> 00:28:54.423
What did we read yesterday as a reader?00:28:54.423 --> 00:29:04.123
I start with summarize, and I'll even tell kids about my own reading and say, you know, I'm reading this mystery the one that's gonna be a movie soon, and I wanna read it before the movie comes out.00:29:04.123 --> 00:29:10.928
And every chapter I'm, I find myself going back and summarizing briefly what happened in the last chapter before I start reading.00:29:11.523 --> 00:29:12.723
Before I make my predictions.00:29:12.813 --> 00:29:20.733
And so it's just what readers do naturally and I think that's why it's so effective, Erin, that it's it, it just feels good doing it.00:29:20.733 --> 00:29:24.843
And I'm just so proud of the teachers that I've worked with that have implemented it.00:29:24.843 --> 00:29:32.763
And anybody here that's interested, you know, reading is fundamental, has resources to help you with it, but really it's all about scaffolding.00:29:33.003 --> 00:29:35.853
David Pearson has one of my favorite quotes.00:29:35.853 --> 00:29:38.673
He says that scaffolding is the art of teaching.00:29:39.623 --> 00:29:40.403
Erin Bailey: I love that.00:29:40.843 --> 00:29:41.113
Lori Oczkus: School.00:29:41.113 --> 00:29:41.533
Right?00:29:41.713 --> 00:29:42.463
Erin Bailey: Yes.00:29:42.963 --> 00:29:45.813
So we talked, you know, a about reading.00:29:45.813 --> 00:29:48.393
You've also done a writing webinar with us.00:29:48.393 --> 00:29:55.473
I'm wondering if you can share for our listeners what connections there may be between reciprocal teaching and teaching writing.00:29:56.673 --> 00:29:57.453
Lori Oczkus: Oh my goodness.00:29:57.483 --> 00:30:03.573
When you have children read with reciprocal teaching, they remember the content better.00:30:04.743 --> 00:30:19.113
So for example, if you are teaching kids to write expository and you're working on reports and those kinds of things, you know they've gotta do a lot of reading first and they have to really digest the reading in a deep way so that they can write about it.00:30:19.413 --> 00:30:23.793
And what we find with our kids with reciprocal teaching is they do just that.00:30:23.793 --> 00:30:28.503
They're better writers because their reading has improved and they have more to say.00:30:28.653 --> 00:30:30.423
And in fact, if we look at.00:30:30.823 --> 00:30:32.143
Nonfiction alone.00:30:32.143 --> 00:30:38.473
When you're reading informational text you, you comprehend better if you use reciprocal teaching.00:30:38.473 --> 00:30:50.923
And Ray Wright did a study with his team in 2005, university of Utah, and I have this cited in my book, and I've actually met all the people that were part of that study, and I love what they did.00:30:50.923 --> 00:30:57.463
They looked at kids using reciprocal teaching and other multiple strategy approaches and kids who didn't.00:30:57.978 --> 00:31:07.998
They looked at how they read nonfiction, informational text, and they found the kids that had the reciprocal teaching read better, comprehended better.00:31:08.238 --> 00:31:10.818
But there was, they remembered what they read.00:31:12.078 --> 00:31:12.888
So think about it.00:31:12.888 --> 00:31:17.838
If you can read a few things, think critically, have a discussion.00:31:18.993 --> 00:31:23.943
Then when you sit down to write, you have more to say and your writing is much better, much richer.00:31:24.333 --> 00:31:28.503
So I just think it, there's just such a great relationship between reading and writing.00:31:28.503 --> 00:31:29.958
The better you read, the better you're writing it.00:31:31.218 --> 00:31:32.958
Erin Bailey: I've always believed that myself.00:31:32.958 --> 00:31:40.638
I mean, when you're a good reader and you have exposure to a lot of different texts, you, you kind of naturally become a good writer.00:31:40.638 --> 00:31:42.228
You've had good role models.00:31:42.285 --> 00:31:44.265
Um, So this has been wonderful.00:31:44.265 --> 00:31:45.375
Lori, thank you so much.00:31:45.375 --> 00:31:50.115
We always end by asking our guests what does reading inspire for you?00:31:51.506 --> 00:31:53.661
Lori Oczkus: Oh my gosh, that's such a great question.00:31:54.111 --> 00:31:55.791
You know, I, I love Central Park.00:31:56.557 --> 00:31:57.067
Anybody else?00:31:57.067 --> 00:31:59.077
A Central Park fan, anytime of year.00:31:59.077 --> 00:32:05.903
I just, my daughter lived, one of my daughters lived in New York for a while, and I love, it's one of my favorite things to do, walk around Central Park, and I love that.00:32:05.903 --> 00:32:10.413
Is it called Strawberry Fields where you know, near where John Lennon was, was killed?00:32:10.413 --> 00:32:12.093
There's, there's the Imagine.00:32:12.948 --> 00:32:16.518
Sort of emblem and word in the ground there in the sidewalk.00:32:16.518 --> 00:32:20.268
And people are always sitting around playing Beatles songs and it's fabulous.00:32:20.418 --> 00:32:22.248
But I love that word, imagine.00:32:22.248 --> 00:32:30.348
And because I use the Fab Four as a metaphor for reciprocal teaching, it's really a metaphor for success.00:32:30.348 --> 00:32:34.858
And, you know, fisher and fray this is their phrase.00:32:34.858 --> 00:32:35.518
I love it.00:32:35.578 --> 00:32:36.593
We want kids to have.00:32:37.806 --> 00:32:41.406
skill and the will to read.00:32:41.406 --> 00:32:48.546
You know, we want them to learn how to read, but we want them to have that desire to read as well.00:32:48.546 --> 00:32:53.376
So the skill, the will, and last of all, but most of all is the thrill.00:32:53.896 --> 00:32:54.786
Erin Bailey: Oh yes.00:32:55.086 --> 00:32:57.576
Lori Oczkus: The will and the thrill of reading.00:32:57.846 --> 00:33:04.176
And that's really, you know, working on something that seems so basic, like running through reciprocal teaching.00:33:04.296 --> 00:33:10.926
We can make it fun, we can make it engaging and we know that talk promotes literacy and promotes reading.00:33:10.926 --> 00:33:12.666
And reading is everything.00:33:13.026 --> 00:33:19.596
Really, from the time babies are born, we recommend that parents read to them throughout all our lives.00:33:19.596 --> 00:33:29.251
We can read and then, you know, as seniors, I have senior parents I'm taking care of, and, and we read, we read together and I read to them and it's just, it really is.00:33:30.111 --> 00:33:31.821
Beautiful reading is life.00:33:32.151 --> 00:33:33.411
It's how we share everything.00:33:33.741 --> 00:33:36.141
And so thank you for your time today.00:33:36.171 --> 00:33:47.231
And then, oh, the University of Sussex has a great study to look at that I, now, I'm not gonna remember the year, but University of Sussex reading, just put that in and you will see it comes up and it's beautiful.00:33:47.231 --> 00:33:50.951
It's all about, they did research on what reading does for the brain.00:33:51.311 --> 00:33:53.201
And it makes you more empathetic.00:33:53.801 --> 00:33:57.641
It just makes you more human, a kinder person, it's life.00:33:57.731 --> 00:34:00.221
So to me, reading is really all about life.00:34:01.221 --> 00:34:01.421
Erin Bailey: Yes.00:34:01.471 --> 00:34:02.221
Thank you so much.00:34:02.526 --> 00:34:08.766
Flo for spending time with us and sharing your knowledge on reciprocal teaching and inspiring each of us.00:34:09.264 --> 00:34:10.794
Lori Oczkus: Thank you very much for inviting me.
Did you enjoy this podcast episode?
Listen to inspiring conversations with Reading Is Fundamental and discover how we're championing children’s literacy across the country. Check out our other podcast episodes right here.