Rethinking Kids' Media Habits with Dr. Tiffany Munzer

WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript

00:00:00.265 --> 00:00:03.105
Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading Is Fundamental.

00:00:03.155 --> 00:00:05.135
I'm your host, Dr. Erin Bailey.

00:00:05.555 --> 00:00:09.235
This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading.

00:00:09.595 --> 00:00:19.895
In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question: What does reading inspire for you?

00:00:20.465 --> 00:00:29.105
Through stories, research, and real-world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes, we explore what literacy looks like and why it matters.

00:00:29.615 --> 00:00:35.215
Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here.

00:00:35.475 --> 00:00:37.865
Be sure to subscribe to get the latest episode.

00:00:38.105 --> 00:00:39.115
Let's get inspired.

00:00:39.786 --> 00:00:40.356
Erin Bailey: Welcome.

00:00:40.356 --> 00:00:49.406
Today I am joined by Dr. Tiffany Munzer, who is a developmental behavioral pediatrician and a digital media researcher at University of Michigan.

00:00:49.726 --> 00:00:58.646
Dr. Munzer's research program is driven by the questions that families often present with related to digital media, parenting, and young children's development.

00:00:58.846 --> 00:01:04.116
Today we're gonna talk about something that I am extremely passionate about, which is screen time for young children.

00:01:04.116 --> 00:01:05.446
So welcome, Dr. Munzer.

00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:07.950
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:09.870
What a treat to be here with you today

00:01:10.265 --> 00:01:24.265
Erin Bailey: so to start, I'm sure our listeners would love to know a little bit about you, what inspired you to become a developmental behavioral pediatrician, and what specifically drew you to focus on your research in children's digital media use?

00:01:25.441 --> 00:01:26.001
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah.

00:01:26.031 --> 00:01:28.001
Thank you so much for that question.

00:01:28.471 --> 00:01:49.031
Yeah, so I, I guess growing up, I just felt like I was so privileged to have all of these opportunities at my fingertips for learning and exploring and just being
curious about whatever topic that I was interested in at the time, and a supportive caregiving environment, you know, where I could really explore those interests.

00:01:49.381 --> 00:01:55.511
And as, as I got older and into high school, I realized that we're not supporting all kids equally.

00:01:55.541 --> 00:02:06.871
And I was lucky enough to work at a camp for kids with physical disabilities and autism and ADHD and learning differences.

00:02:07.131 --> 00:02:26.631
And that really got me thinking about how we're supporting all of our kids with the most optimal opportunities to help them thrive because I felt like
that camp environment was where we really saw kids doing things that they might not have otherwise had a chance to do and experience in their day-to-day.

00:02:26.681 --> 00:02:48.221
And so really wanted to pursue developmental behavioral pediatrics because I wanted to help families find those experiences for themselves and find
those opportunities for themselves, you know, when so much of our society is not designed, you know, to support kids with neurodevelopmental differences.

00:02:48.461 --> 00:02:55.161
So really just wanted to be one small part of that solution in supporting caregivers in, in our society.

00:02:55.891 --> 00:03:14.531
And then how I got interested in digital media was that during residency and fellowship, which happened in the 2010s, I witnessed
increasingly the prevalence of tablets and mobile devices in our clinical spaces, you know, where kids might be waiting for their clinicians.

00:03:14.531 --> 00:03:18.031
We're always running late, and so of course families are gonna pull out their phones.

00:03:18.031 --> 00:03:34.021
They're like, "This doctor has been 30 minutes behind," like, "I have to do something, you know, to occupy my two-year-old." So was
just really curious about how that might be impacting children's development, and so that's how I got into digital media research.

00:03:34.626 --> 00:03:40.136
Erin Bailey: So there's been a pretty big shift quite recently, and you've helped shape some of the conversation around this.

00:03:40.146 --> 00:03:42.706
It used to be like a timestamp, right?

00:03:42.706 --> 00:03:46.216
So it was like birth to age three, no screens.

00:03:46.226 --> 00:03:48.236
Three to age five, two hours a day.

00:03:48.236 --> 00:03:54.276
You know, it was kind of like an hourly time, and the re- recommendations changed quite a bit.

00:03:54.306 --> 00:03:55.536
Can you talk about that?

00:03:55.536 --> 00:04:00.406
And then what are some of the biggest misconceptions that families still have about screen time?

00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:02.340
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah.

00:04:02.380 --> 00:04:03.920
That's a really great question.

00:04:03.930 --> 00:04:15.890
So, there still exist time boundaries that families can use in their day-to-day to kinda set, but those time boundaries really vary depending on a family.

00:04:15.930 --> 00:04:24.550
And so, some of the guidance has really changed because there has just been a lot of change in the digi- in our digital ecosystems.

00:04:25.110 --> 00:04:45.760
And the way that we consume and interact and engage with technology now is much different than even 10 or 20 years ago when there was just a TV in the corner and you could turn it on and off, and
you can measure that time in a really discrete amount of time and say, "Okay, I was watching one show, so that's about 30 minutes," or, "Maybe I was watching a few episodes, so that's two hours."

00:04:46.130 --> 00:04:53.350
And now it's really, it's in our pockets, it's on our face sometimes, you know, it's everywhere.

00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:56.090
And so it's a really more, it's a more immersive system.

00:04:56.370 --> 00:05:07.910
And so, the timestamps, as you were mentioning, really just do not contain enough information for families to make an adequate decision on how much time makes sense.

00:05:08.190 --> 00:05:26.420
And so really what we're hoping to achieve with some of our work with American Academy of Pediatrics is to get parents thinking, parents
and caregivers thinking about their day-to-day and to think about, what are the key ingredients of, you know, helping my child thrive?

00:05:26.440 --> 00:05:30.910
You know, what are the things that they really need and deserve to be healthy and well?

00:05:31.130 --> 00:05:44.810
And those things are sleep, time with family, mealtimes together, if that's possible, you know, shared book reading free play opportunities for physical movement, and, and time at school.

00:05:44.890 --> 00:05:57.730
And so when we plan out and carve out the space for all of these really important key ingredients of childhood, then where might there be space for screen time and entertainment?

00:05:57.770 --> 00:05:59.610
You know, where can we fit that in?

00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:14.900
And so that we are tanking kids up with all these key ingredients first, and then thinking about if you'd like to do digital media,
like how much time should we spend making sure we're not crowding out all of these other really important experiences for kids too.

00:06:14.910 --> 00:06:22.390
So that's kind of part of the frame shift in how we were thinking about screen time and our approach to it.

00:06:24.316 --> 00:06:24.826
Erin Bailey: That's great.

00:06:24.826 --> 00:06:30.636
And it sounds like it's also the activities that you're doing with the screen.

00:06:30.636 --> 00:06:31.236
Is that right?

00:06:31.236 --> 00:06:43.276
So for example, if I'm using I, I do this with my own children, like I'm using my phone, but I'm playing a song from the phone, but the activity is, is dancing.

00:06:43.506 --> 00:06:45.566
And I had to make a shift around that.

00:06:45.566 --> 00:06:58.746
Like, I could either play a YouTube video with Wheels on the Bus and then my children are gonna be focused on the video, or I could
say, "No, we're only gonna listen to the song Music on the Bus or Wheels on the Bus," because then it turns into a dancing activity.

00:06:58.746 --> 00:07:05.946
So is it also about the activity that you're doing with the device, not just the amount of time that you're spending on it?

00:07:07.004 --> 00:07:08.334
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yes, absolutely.

00:07:08.334 --> 00:07:16.194
Yeah, you really hit the nail on the head that it really matters how families are using their digital media time.

00:07:16.194 --> 00:07:24.154
You know, are they using it for these really important moments of connection, you know, where they're experiencing some joy together, you know, and they're moving their bodies around.

00:07:24.154 --> 00:07:44.714
That's a very different experience, you know, than, than maybe watching a lot of, like, sh- short bursts of, like, videos that are fed
to us, all of us, you know, in an algorithm that is tailoring to what it thinks we wanna see, you know, and is highly commercialized.

00:07:44.754 --> 00:07:46.854
You know, that's a very different experience.

00:07:46.874 --> 00:07:49.814
And so content really matters.

00:07:49.814 --> 00:07:52.254
I think there's two pieces there that you pointed out.

00:07:52.254 --> 00:07:54.464
Number one is that the content is really important.

00:07:54.744 --> 00:08:08.004
And those effect estimates are very similar when you have positive educational content, then that it has positive effect estimates with children's development, you know, to the same degree as screen time, you know.

00:08:08.064 --> 00:08:26.564
And so I think when we think clinically, like, and families just need to resort more to digital media for whatever reasons one way to help
shape their experiences toward healthier media habits is to find positive content, you know, if time is a constraint for them, for instance.

00:08:27.204 --> 00:08:33.704
So the second key piece that you mentioned was really about that connectedness, you know, the togetherness, the co-viewing.

00:08:33.964 --> 00:08:58.844
And we know that especially for our youngest learners, our toddlers and preschoolers, they still have trouble transferring that information from a screen into the real world and really benefit
from a loving and trusted caregiver who can help them make meaning of that experience and build those connections in their brain from the screen experiences to the experiences in the real world.

00:08:58.864 --> 00:09:09.874
Because that caregiver or parent is gonna be able to say something like, "Oh, my gosh, remember that time we went to the pool, and you jumped into the water just like this character. You were so brave," you know.

00:09:09.874 --> 00:09:15.714
Like, "How did that feel for you?" And they're really able to kinda t- make those connections and ties to their real life.

00:09:16.094 --> 00:09:21.094
And it's also really important kind of bonding and attachment opportunity, too, for parents.

00:09:21.094 --> 00:09:28.614
And so early on, especially in these toddler and preschool years, that's a really key way to use digital media in a positive way.

00:09:29.680 --> 00:09:32.710
Erin Bailey: So what I'm hearing is it's about the connection too.

00:09:32.730 --> 00:09:47.760
So how about, for example like I- most of our family doesn't live close by, so we use FaceTime a lot, or we'll exchange photos with family members and then use those photos to kinda like have a conversation or recreate the, the day.

00:09:47.760 --> 00:10:02.340
I've found that you know, my two younger children, they're in preschool, and they c- their teachers send me photos of what they're doing in
school that day, and I've been able to use that to help ask them questions and get them talking about what they're doing during the school day

00:10:03.796 --> 00:10:09.196
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah, Erin, I think that's such a positive way also to use digital media.

00:10:09.206 --> 00:10:22.746
And there's a lot of evidence that suggests that FaceTime is different because there's somebody on the other end that's really able to respond in a contingent way to the child on the other end, you know.

00:10:22.916 --> 00:10:27.946
And so there's really this back-and-forth reciprocal interaction.

00:10:28.246 --> 00:10:35.716
Those kinds of back-and-forth serve and return interactions, those are really nurturing for a child's brain development.

00:10:35.746 --> 00:10:45.756
And so I think when you're using it in that really interactive back-and-forth manner it can really strengthen neural connections in a child's brain and build relationships.

00:10:45.756 --> 00:10:53.406
And so those are really important ways to connect with family from afar, and also it's nurturing for a child's mind

00:10:54.860 --> 00:10:59.250
Erin Bailey: So I know that's not often the way families might use screens.

00:10:59.250 --> 00:11:24.320
You know, they're more like, "I'm going to put on a show for my child because we just got home from a busy day, and I need to co- get dinner ready or something." Do you have any advice for if families are going
to use screens in that way, and again, limiting the time and trying to be interactive and with it, but is there a piece of advice that you have for what kind of shows or media that families should look for?

00:11:24.350 --> 00:11:31.900
'Cause I know those, like, really quick-moving, high-contrast kinda shows are not as, as beneficial for children.

00:11:33.540 --> 00:11:33.610
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah.

00:11:33.610 --> 00:11:37.210
So I think there's the same kind of principles are true.

00:11:37.210 --> 00:11:52.360
Like number one I think families are ex- they experience a lot more stressors and burdens than even 20 or 30 years ago it seems.

00:11:52.400 --> 00:12:01.180
Like, there's more that we're asking families to do in terms of anticipatory guidance, and our world is just more complex.

00:12:01.260 --> 00:12:06.940
And and so there's a bigger ask and a bigger burden, you know, placed on families.

00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:16.920
And so of course it's, it can be really overwhelming to navigate a digital world that they didn't have to navigate, you know, when they were even much younger.

00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:22.610
And so they're kind of having to build the plane while flying it.

00:12:22.650 --> 00:12:31.690
And so yes, families are doing so much and it is okay to take some time for themselves and use digital media in a really strategic way.

00:12:31.730 --> 00:12:43.660
And so setting up those boundaries as a family to be like, "Okay, you get a break, and I also am gonna use this time to cook a meal," you know, this like 30-minute show.

00:12:43.690 --> 00:12:57.930
And so really setting those boundaries early on to be like, "Okay, it's only gonna be a 30-minute show and after we're gonna reconnect together as a family during dinner. And I wanna hear from you, what did you see on that show?" You know?

00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:07.530
"What did you think about it? What did you learn from it?" And you can even read, like if there's an episode summary, you can kinda read a brief summary, kind of like what you were mentioning before.

00:13:07.530 --> 00:13:14.480
You know, like those pictures help you think of ideas that you get from daycare on what to talk about, you know, later on.

00:13:14.520 --> 00:13:16.520
And it can create those moments of connection.

00:13:16.540 --> 00:13:30.920
So I think finding those ways to be like, "I don't have time to watch Coviu this episode," but you can still using use it as a jumping
off point, you know, as a conversation starter to be curious about your child's experience and help them make meaning afterward.

00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.870
And then of course setting those boundaries that feel right for you and your family and sticking with it.

00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:47.520
You know, sometimes those transitions away from digital media can be very challenging, and so finding something really fun to do together that maybe extends the idea that they were watching or playing.

00:13:48.400 --> 00:13:50.670
And then selecting high quality media again.

00:13:50.670 --> 00:14:03.380
Sometimes our PBS Kids has some really high quality shows out there that make it easier for families to just kind of be like this is, can be more, It's already high quality.

00:14:03.400 --> 00:14:17.440
I can pick from this 20 plus shows, you know, multiple episodes, and rely on an organization that has done a lot of heavy lifting already to make sure their content is child-centered and not commercialized.

00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:29.698
So I think that those can be some ways that families- build in that time for themselves and also help make sure their kids are getting high quality and positive digital media experiences

00:14:30.894 --> 00:14:34.474
Erin Bailey: I love the idea of establishing a boundary upfront.

00:14:34.474 --> 00:14:36.634
It kind of avoids the, the argument.

00:14:36.634 --> 00:14:46.394
It's either, like, you get to watch one episode, or when I'm finished cooking dinner, we're gonna turn it off and transition, you know, to the dining table or wherever you eat, eat your dinner at.

00:14:46.634 --> 00:14:53.644
I will say, my daughter loves watching musicals, and she's said to me before, like, "Can I wait till this song is over?"

00:14:53.894 --> 00:14:59.184
And I've been like, "Okay, fair enough," because I wouldn't really wanna cut off in the middle of a song either.

00:14:59.184 --> 00:15:03.914
But, you know, again, there's a, there's a concrete ending there because it's the end of the song.

00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:05.620
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yes.

00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:06.810
Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:09.430
Sometimes it's not about a time boundary, you know?

00:15:09.430 --> 00:15:14.660
It's about finding those, like, concrete moments where those transitions will be a little bit easier, you know?

00:15:14.660 --> 00:15:17.850
So thinking about a kid who loves video games, for example.

00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:22.220
Like, if they're about to level up, you know, it doesn't make sense to be like, "All right, you're done."

00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:27.660
Like, like, "You can finish your level, you know? You're almost there, and we can save at a good spot," you know?

00:15:27.660 --> 00:15:49.960
But just being kinda consistent about it so that you're not always like, "Oh, I'm just gonna play a little bit longer to get… Like, after I pass this level, I, like, really wanna play more." 'Cause some of the design elements
embedded in video games just make it harder, again, for kids to transition away, so you kind of have to be a little bit more firm, unfortunately, because you're up against a little bit more from a behavioral standpoint.

00:15:50.650 --> 00:15:50.990
Erin Bailey: Yeah.

00:15:51.500 --> 00:15:54.100
I'd love to hear your take on e-books.

00:15:54.130 --> 00:16:07.940
It's, you know, something that we can take with us everywhere, especially when we don't have physical books, and Reading is Fundamental is very inclusive of any reading platform, both print books, and we do have a digital book platform, Skybrary.

00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:09.000
It's our e-book platform.

00:16:09.340 --> 00:16:21.790
Are there any differences between reading a print book and an e-book, and how can families make sure that when they are using e-books that they have that same high-quality interaction and experience that they might have with, like, a print book?

00:16:22.956 --> 00:16:31.536
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: So that's a really great question, and it really depends on the affordances of the electronic book device.

00:16:31.586 --> 00:16:53.456
And the evidence really shows that when there are a lot of distracting bells and whistles, for instance, like if you tap on a picture and it has, like, shooting stars
coming out of it, but it's not necessarily relevant for the actual content of the book, then it can take away or detract from learning the concepts that are story-driven.

00:16:53.836 --> 00:17:00.436
And in some of our work, we found that tablets especially can sometimes be designed for more personal use.

00:17:00.466 --> 00:17:16.626
And so if kids are moving about the world and they are using a tablet more independently, then it's-- can sometimes create the expectation that it's to be used more independently and make it harder to engage in some of those shared book reading behaviors.

00:17:16.646 --> 00:17:31.106
And so what we found is that parents, when, when they're interacting with their toddlers over an e-book device, they tend to focus in more about the design of the e-book, you know, like tap that or swipe that.

00:17:31.486 --> 00:17:38.176
And then toddlers just tend to create spaces that make it harder for their parents to kind of view and see what they're doing.

00:17:38.216 --> 00:17:46.133
Whereas a a print book has- Two pages, and it has pictures that are big enough for both the parent and the toddler, you know, to see together.

00:17:46.413 --> 00:17:51.653
There's two ends of it, you know, so it makes sense for one person to be holding one end, and the other to be holding another end.

00:17:51.933 --> 00:17:56.143
And then it creates a little bit more of that kind of nestling in effect, too where…

00:17:56.383 --> 00:18:03.593
And it's meant and created to be- come alive when there's a caregiver involved, too, you know.

00:18:03.593 --> 00:18:10.993
Whereas sometimes an e-book if it's reading out loud on its own, the child might expect that this is to be used independently.

00:18:10.993 --> 00:18:21.063
So there's a few, like, design affordances that might be trickier sometimes for toddlers especially to engage in e-book reading with their caregivers.

00:18:21.403 --> 00:18:23.513
But high-quality design.

00:18:23.513 --> 00:18:53.153
So some of- some newer research is emerging on when we embed a character in the e-book that helps teach parents on some of the high-quality interactions that they might have with their toddlers or preschoolers
over an e-book, that can actually promote more of that positive kind of parent conversation that's designed to elicit more child vocabulary development and more back-and-forth serve-and-return interactions.

00:18:53.733 --> 00:19:05.743
And so I think that there's really creative ways that we can think about designing an e-book so that we're bringing out more of the things that are really important that we know to be beneficial for children's development.

00:19:06.183 --> 00:19:23.703
But right now, a lot of commercialized platforms, you know, very, like, from the Google Play Store, for instance, might have features that are
embedded in them that just make it harder for toddlers and preschoolers to learn from them, just 'cause they have a lot of bells and whistles.

00:19:24.251 --> 00:19:24.701
Erin Bailey: Yeah.

00:19:24.751 --> 00:19:26.411
I, I appreciate that so much.

00:19:26.411 --> 00:19:32.901
I, and I forgot to mention earlier if, for those listeners that particularly if you're new, I'll, I'll be sure to link Skybrary below.

00:19:32.901 --> 00:19:38.731
That's Reading Is Fundamental's e-book platform, and it does include 100 free books open access to everyone on it.

00:19:38.961 --> 00:19:47.031
But I think you hit on everything, because we intentionally designed Skybrary to not have those bells and whistles that you mentioned.

00:19:47.031 --> 00:19:53.441
So there's not, you know, pop-ups, stickers, or rewards, just a high-quality reading experience.

00:19:53.441 --> 00:19:57.191
There are about three different ways that you can engage with Skybrary, though.

00:19:57.191 --> 00:20:03.441
Either if you are a child who's at the age that you can read independently on your own, you can read the book.

00:20:03.631 --> 00:20:17.791
There is audio narration, so you can have the book read to you, which is helpful not only for students who are not yet conventional readers, but also for families who maybe aren't r- aren't readers themselves or aren't able to read in English.

00:20:17.951 --> 00:20:19.981
The book can be read aloud for their child.

00:20:20.161 --> 00:20:24.751
It has a text highlighting feature that highlights by phrase, which supports fluency.

00:20:25.131 --> 00:20:28.754
Which again, I don't think of that as like gimmicky or bells and whistles.

00:20:28.774 --> 00:20:31.500
It's actually something to support reading development.

00:20:31.830 --> 00:20:43.090
And then what we would love to see is parents actually using Skybrary the same way they would use a physical book, and reading aloud to and with their child.

00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:49.420
And to your point, we've included some discussion questions in there to help families get the conversation going around the book.

00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:59.410
But that's kind of our hopes with the design of Skybrary, is that you can use it the same way you would use a print book, but it's very por- portable.

00:20:59.600 --> 00:21:11.940
I'm laughing a little bit because I remember, and this was years ago, I was in an airport, and this parent was kind of lecturing their child like, "Why did you put a Kindle and books in your backpack?"

00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:29.640
And I thought like, "Well, you should just be glad that your child wants to read so badly." But to that point, like especially for families who are traveling or
out and about, you now have your device which can have 100-plus books on it that you can just easily access but still keeping it very like child-centered in design.

00:21:30.190 --> 00:21:31.480
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:31.520 --> 00:21:35.170
And I think it's so, you know, I think the other piece that's amazing about Skybrary is

00:21:38.380 --> 00:21:41.500
that to buy 100 books, that is a, a cost,

00:21:42.350 --> 00:21:45.200
cost-prohibitive for so many families.

00:21:45.200 --> 00:22:00.070
And so it's really providing the access to high-quality materials that can reach so many more families who may not … The cost of a library, like a physical library, can be really a big barrier.

00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:08.230
And so I think that the more people we can reach with good books, you know, it's only gonna bring, you know, positive development.

00:22:08.230 --> 00:22:16.110
And so I think it's such a great mission, and there's such thought and care in the design of Skybrary in terms of those design affordances.

00:22:16.592 --> 00:22:16.862
Erin Bailey: Yeah.

00:22:16.942 --> 00:22:17.602
Thank you.

00:22:18.062 --> 00:22:22.732
So we have to talk about artificial intelligence.

00:22:22.752 --> 00:22:30.412
I was recently at an ed tech c- conference, and I think every single session was on AI for ch- for children.

00:22:30.712 --> 00:22:37.102
So it's beginning to start appearing in children's educational apps as well as reading platforms.

00:22:37.462 --> 00:22:43.412
As AI becomes more common, what most excites you about its potentials to support children's literacy?

00:22:43.602 --> 00:22:53.282
And then what are some safeguards that families should keep in mind, and those who are developing children's apps should keep in mind, to ensure that they create a child-first experience?

00:22:54.682 --> 00:22:55.302
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Oh my goodness.

00:22:55.332 --> 00:23:00.552
What an, what a, such a, an important question.

00:23:00.712 --> 00:23:22.830
And I think in thinking through some of the design affordances of artificial intelligence The promise is that the, a large language model could respond in a contingent way to a child in a back-and-forth way.

00:23:22.830 --> 00:23:32.060
So that's where the promise is because we know that when kids get that back and forth serve-and-return interaction, they can learn more, you know, from their experiences.

00:23:32.390 --> 00:24:00.780
And really high quality AI designed with children in mind that have a lot of guardrails and are designed in conjunction with agencies, those types of AI experiences have
been found to improve children's literacy learning and sci- scientific learning knowledge and math learning better than just watching, like, a simple video, for instance.

00:24:00.890 --> 00:24:16.120
For in… So in these instances, it was a character that was asking the child a question after they watched something, and they could respond depending on what that child answered, you know, in a really contingent way.

00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:30.274
So that was a very, very specific use instance, and in these designs, the artificial intelligence is being used to  process the child's language but not

00:24:31.064 --> 00:24:39.604
But there's a constrained set of phrases that then can be responded, like the responses are constrained.

00:24:39.614 --> 00:24:48.834
And so, it wasn't even using an artificial intelligence to write the responses or to speak those responses back to the child, if that makes sense.

00:24:48.854 --> 00:24:59.734
And so there was a sp- very specific guardrail on the back end so that the content couldn't shift or change depending on what that child said.

00:24:59.804 --> 00:25:02.954
It had only a few responses that could be possible.

00:25:03.414 --> 00:25:11.754
So those are a few of the design affordances and the caveats of using AI in a very specific tailored way around learning.

00:25:12.164 --> 00:25:27.644
And right now, there's just a lot of data out there that suggest that LLMs, when, you know, we still ful- don't fully know how they work.

00:25:27.674 --> 00:25:29.444
It's a little bit of a black box.

00:25:29.684 --> 00:25:41.094
You know, it's a … They weight certain words heavier depending on the patterns that it's had in the past from using data sources that we're not fully sure where they're coming from.

00:25:41.094 --> 00:25:45.184
They're coming from data scraped from the internet, but, like, how they're weighted, it's unclear.

00:25:45.784 --> 00:25:54.486
And- It can sometimes, it can be very easy to bypass those guardrails, you know, even though they're in place.

00:25:54.966 --> 00:26:03.976
Most proprietary models of LLMs are designed for use among individuals 13 years of age or older, you know?

00:26:03.976 --> 00:26:14.696
And so when we try to extrapolate those designs, you know, to younger kids, we just have to be really cautious and thoughtful about what that looks like for younger kids.

00:26:14.696 --> 00:26:25.826
And so, Common Sense Media is doing a lot of groundbreaking work in examining how many artificial intelligence apps are available and kind of the quality and safety scores as well.

00:26:25.826 --> 00:26:36.286
And so I think that if viewers are really interested in learning more about specific apps, they would be a resource that I would point to and turn to for just to learn more.

00:26:37.036 --> 00:26:39.056
So those are some of the caveats.

00:26:39.056 --> 00:26:44.966
I think another area of promise might be in helping caregivers.

00:26:45.006 --> 00:26:50.626
You know, supporting caregivers with potential questions they might have around children's development and wellbeing.

00:26:50.626 --> 00:26:59.386
And, and there has been a body of literature and evidence that suggests that it provides pretty okay answers, you know, in regards to parenting.

00:26:59.416 --> 00:27:10.346
And sometimes when there's questions around, "What do I do after my child gets home from the hospital?" It actually does a pretty good response, you know, in terms of some of that anticipatory guidance.

00:27:10.726 --> 00:27:21.526
And so that could be another area of promise, is, like, in the interaction with caregivers and supporting caregivers and developing ideas and and and helping their kids.

00:27:21.546 --> 00:27:31.076
So I think if not the direct interaction with young kids just yet, then thinking through how it could help support caregivers in their interactions with young kids is important.

00:27:31.884 --> 00:27:32.374
Erin Bailey: Yeah.

00:27:32.804 --> 00:27:33.594
So important.

00:27:33.604 --> 00:27:37.274
I, do you think … So this is something I've been thinking about a lot.

00:27:37.464 --> 00:27:45.814
I like what you said about you know, the, the AI was trained to only give, like, three … It, it was responsive, but it could only work within the parameters.

00:27:46.204 --> 00:27:57.934
Do you feel like a lot of these LLMs are trained to c- flatter you or create addictive, like want you to come back more?

00:27:57.934 --> 00:28:00.274
And I'll give you a recent experience from my own use of it.

00:28:00.274 --> 00:28:16.234
So I wrote something, and then I had a title that I came up with, and I just asked, "Does this title fit this section that I wrote?" And
it wrote back, like, "I really like your title, and I think it's a great fitting title, but here are five others that I would propose."

00:28:16.514 --> 00:28:29.274
So it kind of reminded me of like, I don't know if you remember the last time you ever bought shoes in a brick-and-mortar store, but if you ask for a pair of shoes, they'll bring out the pair that you asked for, and they'll bring out, like, three others.

00:28:29.294 --> 00:28:32.394
They wanna make sure that you're walking out of the store with something, right?

00:28:32.414 --> 00:28:36.554
And so that moment that I had with this AI that I was using reminded me of that.

00:28:36.554 --> 00:28:42.384
Like, I'm gonna say those shoes look great on you, but here are three backups just, just in case.

00:28:42.414 --> 00:28:51.374
And are, like, do you see that happening with kids then, where they give a response and they get some kind of flattery, and then they keep going back for more?

00:28:52.084 --> 00:28:52.674
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yes.

00:28:52.734 --> 00:28:53.874
Yes, absolutely.

00:28:53.874 --> 00:28:54.274
Yeah.

00:28:54.314 --> 00:29:16.874
That, that has been characterized among teens and primarily using, like, AI companions, but it is true of even among, among adult users that there is this
sycophancy piece of artificial intelligence that just… You know, we all, we all wanna feel a certain way you know, when we're having our social interactions.

00:29:17.254 --> 00:29:30.124
And that's and when you're built up by something that is not necessarily human, it's not human, it is is an LLM that is telling you that you're really smart.

00:29:30.134 --> 00:29:33.584
Like, of course you would wanna keep going back, you know, to use it.

00:29:33.584 --> 00:29:40.614
And so that is a design feature that is helping to prolong the engagement with that app.

00:29:40.804 --> 00:29:49.214
And it doesn't necessarily have to be that way, you know, especially for kids who are learning how to navigate and interact with the world.

00:29:49.244 --> 00:29:53.774
They shouldn't expect flattery with every single interaction, every single social interaction.

00:29:54.084 --> 00:30:05.844
They learn and grow the most when there's some gentle friction and they have to navigate those social situations and social interactions and not when you're just right all the time and so super smart all the time.

00:30:06.204 --> 00:30:29.804
And so I think that that's the other kind of key piece that I'm so glad you brought up, is that there's this potential for parasocial interaction with an AI LLM, you know,
even a general purpose AI LLM that can- might crowd out those back-and-forth interactions with peers or caregivers, you know, when those feel a little bit more tricky for kids.

00:30:29.884 --> 00:30:44.404
So I'm- In thinking about kids where some of those social interactions with peers or even caregivers can feel really effortful because social interactions were not, they- their brains were just not hardwired to, that it's just trickier for them.

00:30:44.504 --> 00:30:50.334
And so they might gravitate towards an AI LLM because it is easier.

00:30:50.334 --> 00:30:57.814
You know, it's designed to be frictionless for you to access, and it's designed to make you feel smart, you know, and in navigating those interactions.

00:30:57.814 --> 00:31:13.904
And so it could crowd out important moments for social connection in person and to learn how to navigate just the harder waters sometimes of those social interactions t- too.

00:31:15.852 --> 00:31:16.132
Erin Bailey: Yeah.

00:31:16.132 --> 00:31:19.362
It sounds like there needs to be balance, right?

00:31:19.362 --> 00:31:32.952
I mean, I, I think that's our whole conversation today is, is about finding the balance and know that you're going to use digital media, you're going to use AI, and where does that human interaction come in?

00:31:32.952 --> 00:31:35.222
Because that's something we can't replace.

00:31:35.232 --> 00:31:48.372
Even, you know, what you're describing of an AI language agent that can ask a child, let's say they're reading, and they ask the child a question, the child gives a, a response, and it gives feedback on the response.

00:31:48.402 --> 00:31:51.272
Either like, yeah, you know, that's, that's correct.

00:31:51.272 --> 00:31:56.612
Have you thought about… Or, you know, let's go back and reread this because that wasn't exactly.

00:31:56.622 --> 00:32:06.852
Like, it can give that kind of feedback, but still you're missing the, that affective component that happens when a family member is, is there.

00:32:06.852 --> 00:32:15.642
Or another way to think of it is, like, that warm and fuzzy that you described earlier of a child sitting in a family member's lap and reading a book together.

00:32:15.662 --> 00:32:18.342
So I think it's inclusive, right?

00:32:18.352 --> 00:32:19.722
It's a yes and

00:32:21.866 --> 00:32:26.076
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah, and those embodied experiences are so important, you know?

00:32:26.076 --> 00:32:30.586
And that is one area that AI falls short, you know?

00:32:30.586 --> 00:32:56.806
Like, it's not an embodied experience, and a caregiver really understands their child and has had those in-person experiences with them to be able to draw from those experiences and help
them make sense of the world and make meaning of the world, and build that relationship that can help them weather whatever storms, you know, might come for them later and build resilience.

00:32:56.816 --> 00:33:19.496
So I think that there's I think a lot of us in this early childhood space are really worried about that early relational health piece, you know, and and how can we support caregivers in building
those early relationships that we know are gonna be super important, that are super important right now for that child, and also across the lifespan, too, you know, in an AI-driven world.

00:33:19.496 --> 00:33:25.236
And it's just kind of we're all kind of thinking about it a little bit more just because of the affordances of AI

00:33:25.598 --> 00:33:25.958
Erin Bailey: Yeah.

00:33:26.048 --> 00:33:35.748
It's, it's a good thing to think about and you know, I know there's a lot of uncertainty right now, but it's a good problem to solve, and it takes creative problem-solving to get there.

00:33:36.248 --> 00:33:52.668
So for those listeners, if they could just remember one thing from today's conversation that really stood out for you, what would you hope that they
would take away especially about helping their children develop healthy relationships with technology, but also nurturing a lifelong love of reading?

00:33:54.642 --> 00:33:55.242
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah.

00:33:55.462 --> 00:33:57.662
It, that is such a great question.

00:33:57.932 --> 00:34:02.202
And if I may, I might add one more point if that's okay.

00:34:02.324 --> 00:34:02.604
Erin Bailey: yeah,

00:34:02.863 --> 00:34:03.389
absolutely

00:34:03.526 --> 00:34:08.656
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: and that is just that there's just been so much investment in our digital spaces.

00:34:08.916 --> 00:34:25.296
Like, over the last decade, there's just been millions and millions of dollars just poured into making our digital spaces easy to access and frictionless, while there's just been an erosion in our a- access to in-person supports and services, you know?

00:34:25.326 --> 00:34:42.736
And so sometimes families feel like their hands are tied in accessing digital spaces because those in-person spaces, for instance, safe green spaces for kids to play, third spaces for teens to gather, those have gradually been eroded over time.

00:34:42.736 --> 00:34:50.686
There has been a stagnation in the investment in our infrastructure and in-person supports, you know, including our school system.

00:34:50.726 --> 00:35:03.526
And so, families, of course, it, like, makes a lot of sense for families to turn to these digital spaces, you know, to meet a need that we haven't adequately supported as a society.

00:35:03.546 --> 00:35:15.760
And so I think from a big picture standpoint- I just want families to know that it can be really hard and and it does take more effort, you know, to navigate this digital world.

00:35:15.860 --> 00:35:17.680
But they shouldn't feel guilty, you know?

00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:25.010
And if there's changes that they wanna make around how they're using digital media, it is possible, and you can set boundaries, you know?

00:35:25.010 --> 00:35:37.050
And and most families already have, like, what their goals are for their kids, to be kind, good learners, you know, and curious about the world.

00:35:37.050 --> 00:35:41.130
You know, that, those are goals that we all pretty much universally share.

00:35:41.140 --> 00:35:54.900
And so when we can think together as clinicians with families about how we support those goals, it might be… and not think so much about the digital media itself, we can set families up for success.

00:35:54.910 --> 00:36:12.290
So finding ways if the families are having a hard time accessing in-person extracurriculars, finding ways to get those a- finding opportunities
for those in-person extracurriculars, you know, that can then crowd out some of those digital media experiences is really important.

00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:32.570
You know, if they're having a hard time accessing childcare and they're using digital media, you know, t- for that purpose, you know, we can find a way to replace digital
media with some actual childcare, you know, and do some kind of on the ground survey, sur- Just try to find those opportunities for families where- wherever possible.

00:36:32.600 --> 00:36:47.950
So the digital media might be serving a particular function, and if we figure out what function it's serving, then we can th- think
through and problem solve in a way that is practical and not blaming or shaming families who are using it for a specific purpose.

00:36:48.994 --> 00:37:02.984
Erin Bailey: I could not agree more, and that resonates so much with me because I'm such a advocate of outdoor learning and utilizing outdoor spaces and just spending as much time outdoors with your children as you can.

00:37:02.984 --> 00:37:06.464
So when you said that green space, you know, my face lit up.

00:37:06.464 --> 00:37:09.654
But of course, there's other spaces, too, like libraries.

00:37:09.694 --> 00:37:10.532
but I think you're right.

00:37:10.542 --> 00:37:25.272
W- like, as a society, we need to support families with childcare, and that's, to your point, a big piece around why sometimes people rely on digital, digital media.

00:37:25.312 --> 00:37:29.932
You know, 'cause it allows you to do something else when your child's occupied with that

00:37:31.084 --> 00:37:32.264
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:32.294 --> 00:37:32.724
Yeah.

00:37:33.094 --> 00:37:47.704
And then I think to your latter question around how can we raise, like, good readers and it, and just I think the work of reading is fundamental, of just getting more books into the hands of families is so important, you know?

00:37:47.714 --> 00:37:52.324
Because I think there are a lot of structural systemic barriers to access of books.

00:37:52.324 --> 00:38:02.084
And so getting those in the hands of families and just telling them that it's not about just the reading, it's about, like, that connection that you're building together, you know?

00:38:02.114 --> 00:38:08.854
That talking, singing, you know, narrating your world is also equally important, you know?

00:38:08.854 --> 00:38:15.294
And so creating that early language-rich environment through whatever materials might make sense for your family is great

00:38:15.834 --> 00:38:16.814
Erin Bailey: Yeah, I love that.

00:38:16.814 --> 00:38:22.464
I, for a long time I've been saying it's never too early to start reading to your child.

00:38:22.464 --> 00:38:29.844
I've been a really adv- big advocate of what I call reading to the bump, which is, like, you can start as early as pregnancy reading to your child.

00:38:29.844 --> 00:38:35.204
But I recently added, it's never too early to start reading to your child, but it's also never too late.

00:38:35.214 --> 00:38:38.774
Even if you have older children try reading to them.

00:38:38.814 --> 00:38:39.884
It's, it's amazing

00:38:40.236 --> 00:38:40.706
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah.

00:38:41.086 --> 00:38:41.706
I love that.

00:38:41.716 --> 00:38:42.496
That's fabulous

00:38:43.522 --> 00:38:46.532
Erin Bailey: So here's the tricky question that gets everyone at the end.

00:38:46.542 --> 00:38:49.722
We always end by asking, what does reading inspire for you?

00:38:51.028 --> 00:38:51.238
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Yeah.

00:38:51.598 --> 00:39:03.728
Well, I think one of the things that reading inspires for me and is that I've only lived my world in one body, as one human.

00:39:03.998 --> 00:39:16.668
And so I only know my own experiences of how I move through the world, and I'm lucky to get a window of that, you know, into my patients' and families' lives, you know, when we're seeing families in clinic.

00:39:17.498 --> 00:39:24.168
And also, books really open that window for me in really understanding the experiences of another person.

00:39:24.528 --> 00:39:33.528
And, and it just brings you into the world of where whoever, whatever, wherever that person, that character might be.

00:39:33.628 --> 00:39:48.348
And so I think that that's really the window, and what it inspires for me is just that there can be so many differences and yet this shared humanity, you know, in walking the sh- shoes of another person and understanding the perspective of another person.

00:39:48.448 --> 00:39:52.578
Yeah, I think that that's, that would be my response to that tricky question,

00:39:52.820 --> 00:39:53.500
Erin Bailey: I love it.

00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:58.810
Reading inspires perspective and e- and empathy and walking in someone else's shoes.

00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:01.200
Thank you so much Dr. Munzer.

00:40:01.230 --> 00:40:06.570
And for everyone who's listening, if something resonated with you, please share this episode with your friend.

00:40:06.570 --> 00:40:07.880
We'd love to spread the word.

00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.480
Thank you

00:40:09.512 --> 00:40:10.092
Dr. Tiffany Munzer: Thank you

00:40:10.893 --> 00:40:14.433
Thank you for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading Is Fundamental.

00:40:14.743 --> 00:40:20.223
I hope today's conversation sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading.

00:40:20.573 --> 00:40:29.773
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with a fellow literacy champion, and join us next time as we continue exploring what reading inspires