The Science & Art of Effective Read-Alouds with Dr. Jill Pentimonti
In this episode, Dr. Erin Bailey sits down with Dr. Jill Pentimonti, a member of Reading is Fundamental's Early Childhood Literacy Advisory Board, to explore the science and art of effective preschool read-alouds. Jill shares her journey from finance major to early childhood educator to researcher, driven by her passion for understanding how young brains develop language and literacy skills, and breaks down the core components of impactful read-alouds into three essential areas: building listening comprehension through rich questions, developing print knowledge by pointing out letters and how books work, and fostering awareness of language sounds through rhyming and alliteration. She emphasizes that simply reading words off a page is not enough, and that it is the human interaction, the back-and-forth conversation, and the intentional questions that transform story time into powerful learning experiences.
The conversation offers practical, research-backed strategies for both teachers and families, including the importance of a balanced diet of books spanning narrative stories, information texts, alphabet books, and rhyming books, as well as the power of rereading to deepen learning and effective scaffolding techniques to support and challenge young readers.
About Dr. Jill Pentimonti:
Dr. Jill Pentimonti is an Associate Research Professor in the Institute for Educational Initiatives and the Executive Director of Research Advancement in the Office of the Vice President for Research at the University of Notre Dame, where she also leads the Early Learning Foundations (ELF) Lab. Her work focuses on language, literacy, and learning in the preschool and early elementary years.
Dr. Pentimonti’s research centers on supporting young children’s language and literacy development, particularly for those at risk for reading difficulties. She has led multiple large-scale, federally funded studies examining classroom practices, instructional supports, and interventions that foster children’s early learning. Her work has also advanced the use of innovative tools and methods—including AI-powered assessments—to better understand and improve early learning experiences for children, families, and teachers.
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Erin Bailey: Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.00:00:03.150 --> 00:00:05.010
I'm your host, Dr. Aaron Bailey.00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.280
This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading.00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:15.535
In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question.00:00:16.245 --> 00:00:17.985
What does Reading inspire for you?00:00:18.225 --> 00:00:26.415
Through stories, research, and real world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes, we explore what literacy looks like and why it matters.00:00:26.655 --> 00:00:32.324
Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here.00:00:32.324 --> 00:00:33.434
Let's get inspired.00:00:33.794 --> 00:00:35.175
Today I'm chatting with Dr.00:00:35.175 --> 00:00:40.725
Jill Pen, who is a member of our Early Childhood Literacy Advisory Board.00:00:41.085 --> 00:00:45.044
A couple years ago through the Innovative Approaches to Literacy grant, we launched.00:00:45.220 --> 00:00:50.019
Read for Success Early Childhood, which brings together read alouds and play-based learning.00:00:50.019 --> 00:00:55.960
And Jill as a researcher with a research background, has supported us with our research initiative for this program.00:00:56.330 --> 00:00:57.320
So welcome, Jill.00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:04.550
We'll start with just introduce yourself and share your story and your journey into early childhood education and literacy.00:01:05.328 --> 00:01:05.863
Jill P: Well, thank you.00:01:05.898 --> 00:01:10.068
It's so great to be here talking about my absolute favorite topics.00:01:10.068 --> 00:01:11.118
I'm thrilled to be here.00:01:11.118 --> 00:01:14.718
So yeah, just to, to share a little bit about my path.00:01:14.718 --> 00:01:23.568
I, I really had sort of a moment or an a. Experience that, that made me just fall deeply in love with early education and early literacy.00:01:23.568 --> 00:01:25.358
I had a windy path to that.00:01:25.358 --> 00:01:27.098
I majored in finance as an undergrad.00:01:27.098 --> 00:01:27.668
I love math.00:01:27.668 --> 00:01:28.418
I love numbers.00:01:28.418 --> 00:01:32.828
That'll come around in a minute, but I had a, I was lucky enough to spend a summer.00:01:33.058 --> 00:01:35.728
Working in Chicago in an early childhood classroom.00:01:35.798 --> 00:01:39.368
And I just fell in love with kids that age.00:01:39.368 --> 00:01:41.228
They're so fun, they're so curious.00:01:41.228 --> 00:01:55.958
With reading to them, I just loved it, but it also made me so aware of how important early experiences are and how important early literacy experiences particularly are, and how if you have a good foundation in those that can set you on such.00:01:56.223 --> 00:02:01.113
A fantastic path throughout your life as a student, but also as a lover of reading.00:02:01.113 --> 00:02:01.413
Right.00:02:01.413 --> 00:02:04.653
So I think that, that, that experience really did it for me.00:02:04.933 --> 00:02:07.603
And so I, you know, I decided, hey, I want to teach.00:02:07.603 --> 00:02:10.483
I did that for six years in early childhood classrooms.00:02:10.793 --> 00:02:27.243
I loved that and had some really fantastic experiences, but really what came back to me over and over as I was teaching is just this curiosity about
how these amazing brains were working in these great kids I was working with, and how this language and literacy development was happening, right?00:02:27.303 --> 00:02:34.503
So I felt like I really needed to know those mechanisms, and it also, like I said, became clear to me more and more every day.00:02:34.878 --> 00:02:47.448
How important and how variable those early experiences were and how little resources we have really to devoted to these early experiences and that we need to be using what works to be efficient.00:02:47.538 --> 00:02:50.178
Our little ones deserve this, right?00:02:50.178 --> 00:02:51.558
The best of the best.00:02:51.808 --> 00:02:54.388
And so I think that led me to being a researcher.00:02:54.968 --> 00:03:00.878
This sort of early education world where one of the things I get to do is try to understand what works best.00:03:01.148 --> 00:03:12.338
Why is it efficient cost-wise with our limited resources, and are we doing the best for kids that we possibly can to give them that foundation of early literacy?00:03:12.338 --> 00:03:12.638
So.00:03:12.893 --> 00:03:19.403
That's so the windy path I took to this, to this role now sort of as an early childhood education researcher.00:03:19.503 --> 00:03:30.778
And, and just thrilled that I get to do things like this and have conversations about the importance of some of the things that we all be, can be doing as teachers, as parents to support kids early literacy.00:03:31.433 --> 00:03:32.153
Erin Bailey: Thanks, Jill.00:03:32.153 --> 00:03:35.033
So I had no idea you had a math background.00:03:35.033 --> 00:03:36.203
We have common.00:03:36.413 --> 00:03:37.913
I, I minored in math00:03:39.263 --> 00:03:39.473
it.00:03:39.473 --> 00:03:49.733
it, does make sense how, you know your background is math, but you found this love for reading and fostering literacy with young children, but that analytical part of you.00:03:49.853 --> 00:03:52.103
Is what drew you to the research.00:03:52.153 --> 00:03:53.533
That's, that's fantastic.00:03:53.613 --> 00:04:01.513
So since you are a researcher what does research say is the secret sauce for effective preschool read alouds and, and why does it matter?00:04:02.603 --> 00:04:09.293
Jill P: I love this question because my absolute favorite part of the day when I was a teacher was doing that read aloud and shared book reading.00:04:09.293 --> 00:04:12.443
It was so fun because you know, the kids were engaged.00:04:12.443 --> 00:04:12.983
I was engaged.00:04:12.983 --> 00:04:19.223
We either were laughing or we were talking about a serious topic 'cause we could throw a book or we're just learning cool things.00:04:19.463 --> 00:04:25.853
And so when I sort of got deeply into the research and you know, when I was getting my PhD, I was so excited.00:04:26.483 --> 00:04:27.413
There was this body of.00:04:27.863 --> 00:04:29.783
Research that said, yeah, you're right.00:04:29.783 --> 00:04:34.343
It, it isn't just the fun or you, you don't just think this is a good instructional practice.00:04:34.703 --> 00:04:37.073
This is truly changing kids skills.00:04:37.343 --> 00:04:46.463
And I just am so excited by the fact that this fun activity that we naturally do with kids in homes, in schools actually has meaningful impact on kids skills.00:04:46.673 --> 00:04:49.403
But like you said, what's that secret sauce is the key to it.00:04:49.703 --> 00:04:53.153
Flipping the pages, reading the words off the page is not the key.00:04:53.153 --> 00:04:54.473
That's not the secret sauce.00:04:55.148 --> 00:05:00.728
What the secret sauce is, is the human interaction, the back and forth, the language.00:05:00.788 --> 00:05:05.768
So the question asking the things that are being pointed out during that read aloud, right?00:05:05.768 --> 00:05:09.158
So that is so, so key to making sure.00:05:09.653 --> 00:05:15.953
That this really cool experience, again, that we do naturally is as effective and as efficient as possible.00:05:16.203 --> 00:05:20.703
And so, you know, I, I often try to think about this interaction piece, right?00:05:20.703 --> 00:05:22.323
Is in three big buckets.00:05:22.323 --> 00:05:27.003
And those buckets we know are the types of skills and the types of things we're talking and.00:05:27.343 --> 00:05:34.213
Structure we're doing with kids that we know from research are most impactful to children becoming skilled readers later.00:05:34.603 --> 00:05:35.773
One of those is language.00:05:35.983 --> 00:05:37.333
Using their language.00:05:37.483 --> 00:05:41.533
Language, getting their listening comprehension up and running, right?00:05:41.533 --> 00:05:49.723
You're not doing reading comprehension when you're pre-K, but you are doing listening comprehension, and so you as a parent or teacher, when you're asking good questions.00:05:50.048 --> 00:05:51.998
When you're saying, what do you think is gonna happen next?00:05:51.998 --> 00:05:54.038
You're getting that listening comprehension going.00:05:54.458 --> 00:05:57.158
Another good part about asking a question like, well.00:05:58.263 --> 00:05:59.553
You think is gonna happen next?00:06:00.033 --> 00:06:03.483
A child has to use more than one word to answer that question, right?00:06:03.693 --> 00:06:06.333
And the way to learn language is to use language.00:06:06.333 --> 00:06:10.233
So it's such a wonderful way to sort of build language skills.00:06:10.623 --> 00:06:12.003
The other one is print knowledge.00:06:12.183 --> 00:06:16.923
We know that kids knowing the names of letters and the sounds they make is one of going into kindergarten.00:06:16.923 --> 00:06:20.613
Having that knowledge is one of the best ways to prepare them for reading success.00:06:21.048 --> 00:06:22.698
Print all over books.00:06:22.968 --> 00:06:26.808
It's a great way to point out print, point out letters.00:06:27.108 --> 00:06:28.368
There's your letter a, Amy.00:06:28.368 --> 00:06:29.688
It's right there in that word, right?00:06:29.688 --> 00:06:31.398
Doing, saying things like that.00:06:31.398 --> 00:06:31.968
Get pe.00:06:32.028 --> 00:06:33.133
Kids paying attention to print.00:06:34.177 --> 00:06:41.557
And then the other third piece that I think about that's so good in that interaction, secret sauce, part of read aloud is sounds of language.00:06:41.797 --> 00:06:50.287
Because when kids are learning to decode or sort of read the words, like knowing that CAT says caat and you blend it together for cat, right?00:06:50.287 --> 00:06:51.157
That's a skill.00:06:51.397 --> 00:06:53.677
You've gotta listen to those sounds of language.00:06:53.927 --> 00:06:58.757
So practicing that when you're reading rhyming books, there's so many great rhyming books out there.00:06:59.087 --> 00:07:03.257
Books of ation or books that have the same sound, like Silly Sally is one, right?00:07:03.377 --> 00:07:08.957
So you're getting kids to pay attention to the sounds of language, all of those kinds of activities.00:07:08.957 --> 00:07:13.547
That interaction that you can be doing is absolutely the secret sauce.00:07:13.547 --> 00:07:13.937
And again.00:07:14.447 --> 00:07:16.907
What I love about read alouds is that just makes it easy.00:07:16.937 --> 00:07:25.967
It is natural, right, to ask those kinds of questions 'cause books and that activity itself just makes it easy for the adult to be doing those sorts of things with kids.00:07:26.782 --> 00:07:31.972
Erin Bailey: I That was so helpful the way you broke that down into the three buckets of listening comprehension.00:07:31.972 --> 00:07:37.732
And I noticed you did say listening comprehension rather than reading comprehension because they're young children.00:07:37.732 --> 00:07:40.132
They're being read a too.00:07:40.522 --> 00:07:44.332
Then the print knowledge and then the language sounds.00:07:44.332 --> 00:07:50.572
That's super helpful for the, for maybe some families who might be listening, do you have any tips?00:07:50.572 --> 00:07:58.102
Do they need to cover all of those three buckets in one read aloud, or are they able to, you know, pick and choose as they're going?00:07:59.287 --> 00:08:00.367
Jill P: It's a great question.00:08:00.367 --> 00:08:05.587
And I say this a lot too 'cause I think there's a temptation to ask all the questions all at once, right?00:08:05.587 --> 00:08:09.067
But then what we think about is the story is fantastic as well.00:08:09.067 --> 00:08:11.947
And so we wanna stay to that and keep kids engaged.00:08:12.337 --> 00:08:15.457
So no, not all of those need to be asked at once.00:08:15.457 --> 00:08:21.967
I often think about, you know, and I, and I realize this, like coming from being a teacher, like I really needed to be more planful.00:08:21.997 --> 00:08:22.687
Take a minute.00:08:22.837 --> 00:08:24.427
And this doesn't take a lot of planning.00:08:24.427 --> 00:08:27.337
I am not taking, talking about 15, 20 minutes, I'm talking about.00:08:27.647 --> 00:08:35.777
Take a quick look through the book and think, oh, there's a vocabulary word I might need to, to sort of talk about to, to boost up some listening comprehension.00:08:36.017 --> 00:08:40.187
Or this book has a great print, like sometimes books have really cool looking print.00:08:40.187 --> 00:08:48.077
Like I will definitely wanna print out, print in that sort of look at each book and think about what, what you might wanna pull out when you're reading that book.00:08:48.497 --> 00:08:52.157
And then the other piece I say to your point of, do you wanna hit all three all at once, is.00:08:52.502 --> 00:08:53.252
We all know this.00:08:53.252 --> 00:08:55.892
Kids love to reread books00:08:56.762 --> 00:09:00.092
that you don't just have one bite at the apple in any way, shape, or form.00:09:00.092 --> 00:09:02.702
Sometimes we wish we could move on from a certain book, right?00:09:02.892 --> 00:09:06.372
Which I love about kids too, but you're gonna have chance to read that again.00:09:06.612 --> 00:09:15.432
And so, you know, often if it's like sort of a really cool story, I'll think, oh, that first time around, I'm gonna read this loud, I'm just gonna ask questions about what the story is about.00:09:15.612 --> 00:09:19.632
And then the second time I'll pull out some really cool things about the print.00:09:19.967 --> 00:09:24.167
Third, I'll talk about sounds of language, or if it's an alphabet book.00:09:24.617 --> 00:09:29.987
You know, I won't maybe do as many questions in the listening comprehension space, but I'll talk a ton about letters.00:09:29.987 --> 00:09:30.317
Right.00:09:30.317 --> 00:09:32.237
So just being a little bit thoughtful.00:09:32.237 --> 00:09:40.007
Again, not a ton of time, but a little bit thoughtful about when you pick up a book kind of breezing through and thinking, okay, these are some cool questions I can ask.00:09:40.007 --> 00:09:42.197
I don't have to ask them all at once.00:09:42.647 --> 00:09:43.487
Erin Bailey: That's so helpful.00:09:43.487 --> 00:09:50.267
And I was gonna say that especially for families, if you own the books, you're gonna read them many, many times.00:09:50.507 --> 00:09:53.057
One thing that I experienced the other day actually.00:09:53.057 --> 00:09:56.357
Though, 'cause you know, I read aloud with my daughter, she's five.00:09:56.687 --> 00:10:00.317
Was that I like to ask children to make predictions.00:10:00.317 --> 00:10:05.977
That was always one of my favorite things to ask when I was a teacher too, especially when I taught first grade.00:10:06.337 --> 00:10:08.867
But actually what I discovered the other night was if.00:10:09.232 --> 00:10:22.097
If you know the ending to the book, sometimes can't always ask I think one tip that I learned myself you know, over the course of
the last week or so is if you are gonna ask to make predictions, it's probably best on the first time that you're reading the book.00:10:23.292 --> 00:10:24.252
Jill P: Exactly.00:10:24.252 --> 00:10:32.322
And, and some of the tips too that I, I'd give teachers and parents is just that like, think about how often you wanna ask the same type of question.00:10:32.532 --> 00:10:39.957
I noticed too that teachers and parents often read the title and the author and focus on that a little Once you do it once, you don't really have to do it every time.00:10:39.957 --> 00:10:40.197
Right.00:10:40.197 --> 00:10:45.597
So think about mixing up those questions as you're doing each read aloud.00:10:45.597 --> 00:10:45.897
Right?00:10:45.897 --> 00:10:54.417
So I think it's fine to not ask the exact same questions over and over, but think about sort of varying the types of things you're talking about with the child.00:10:54.832 --> 00:10:55.852
Erin Bailey: Yeah, that's wonderful.00:10:56.062 --> 00:10:58.672
So you mentioned rhyming books earlier.00:10:58.892 --> 00:11:05.192
And you know, we're focusing on very young children, you know, 4, 5 year, six years old, pre-reads really.00:11:05.462 --> 00:11:15.782
And what should teachers look for or families look for when they're choosing books, especially for children to be able to see themselves, learn about world around them, and engage in the kind of00:11:15.782 --> 00:11:17.462
rich language that you shared.00:11:17.917 --> 00:11:20.887
Jill P: Yeah, I love this too 'cause it is one of my favorite things to talk about.00:11:20.917 --> 00:11:25.807
'cause I've done some research in this space and what I say is a balanced diet.00:11:25.837 --> 00:11:29.227
Think about it as we think about sort of what our mules should look like, right?00:11:29.407 --> 00:11:32.947
We need a variety of protein and veggies and, and carbohydrates, right?00:11:32.947 --> 00:11:37.327
The think about it in that same sense, narrative books are fantastic.00:11:37.327 --> 00:11:39.727
There's so much good about narrative books.00:11:39.727 --> 00:11:41.077
You can talk about story structure.00:11:41.677 --> 00:11:46.867
Which is sometimes sort of abstract when you say the words beginning, middle, and end to a three, four, 5-year-old.00:11:46.867 --> 00:11:48.637
That's a very abstract concept.00:11:48.637 --> 00:11:50.467
That's really hard to describe.00:11:50.857 --> 00:11:56.017
But when you are reading a book, it's super easy then to say, oh, at the beginning this happened in the story.00:11:56.017 --> 00:11:56.317
Right?00:11:56.587 --> 00:12:00.637
That's such a great way to get story structure, vocabulary words.00:12:00.637 --> 00:12:08.857
I love reading books about emotions with the kids in my classroom, giving kids the ability to have a new words for the emotion they're feeling.00:12:09.102 --> 00:12:14.082
Just opens up communication lines and books about emotions make it so helpful to talk about it.00:12:14.082 --> 00:12:14.262
Right.00:12:14.262 --> 00:12:21.342
So those sorts of things, and like you said, the prediction and the language comp, listening comprehension piece narratives are spectacular.00:12:21.642 --> 00:12:27.942
What we know when, this is sort of, I was referencing in my research, I, you know, so when I first came to grad school, one of the things I did was try to understand.00:12:28.197 --> 00:12:29.787
What are kids getting exposed to?00:12:29.787 --> 00:12:35.037
And we know about 95% of the time children are getting exposed to narrative books.00:12:35.367 --> 00:12:42.297
What that means is they're not getting a lot of what I call information or narrative books, and those are books about a specific topic.00:12:42.387 --> 00:12:44.337
Dinosaurs, ladybugs, rocks.00:12:44.337 --> 00:12:44.637
Right?00:12:44.697 --> 00:12:52.767
They we're not seeing a lot of those and there's actually a lot of really cool books out there that are purely often pictures and have.00:12:52.932 --> 00:12:58.272
Labels and have bolded words and our new vocabulary and really are about a topic.00:12:58.602 --> 00:13:01.122
And what I love about those books is a couple of things.00:13:01.332 --> 00:13:04.332
One, they look a whole lot, look like a textbook.00:13:04.602 --> 00:13:11.982
And when kids get into third grade and they're moving from this learning to read, to reading to learn, they're gonna have a lot of textbooks.00:13:12.127 --> 00:13:20.827
So if they're really comfortable with that structure, that there's bolded words, that there's maybe a, a, you know, a pop out picture that had labeled parts of a plant or something like that.00:13:21.037 --> 00:13:25.267
If they know, sometimes there's a text box that has a new kind of fact over here.00:13:25.567 --> 00:13:31.177
If that doesn't confuse them, if they're used to that text structure, their comprehension is gonna be that much better.00:13:31.207 --> 00:13:34.327
So getting kids exposed to that young is super important.00:13:34.597 --> 00:13:36.307
There's gonna be technical vocabulary.00:13:36.307 --> 00:13:37.537
Kids love to learn.00:13:37.537 --> 00:13:37.987
No words.00:13:38.227 --> 00:13:40.507
How many little kids do you know that know these really?00:13:41.557 --> 00:13:43.837
Of dinosaurs that I would never know, right.00:13:44.047 --> 00:13:45.997
This is exciting and fun for them.00:13:46.277 --> 00:13:49.575
And then I think kids really love that technical vocabulary.00:13:49.575 --> 00:13:52.035
I think they have fun learning new words like that.00:13:52.035 --> 00:13:55.935
And the information books are such a fun way to learn those new words.00:13:55.935 --> 00:13:59.685
And it can be so motivating because other topics they really wanna learn about.00:13:59.715 --> 00:14:06.045
So the point being, hey, let's have this balanced diet of both narrative books and information books.00:14:06.315 --> 00:14:10.485
And then I also think of other types of books sort of more in that narrative point too, that are.00:14:10.710 --> 00:14:11.580
Alphabet books.00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:15.780
So you are talking about letters and their sounds, rhyming books.00:14:15.780 --> 00:14:28.260
So you're listening to those sounds of language and then books that really help kids understand different cultures maybe that they haven't been exposed to, or different roles in this world that maybe they haven't been exposed to.00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.710
Or like I said, emotions being able to talk about their emotions.00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:36.675
Books are such a. Special way to have some of those conversations and learn some of those topics.00:14:36.675 --> 00:14:42.835
So, really that the whole point being like, let's make sure we're, get in a balanced diet when we're thinking about the types of books we're choosing.00:14:43.317 --> 00:14:52.687
Erin Bailey: When you were talking, it was making me think of one of the favorite books that I discovered when my daughter was just a baby and we were reading, you know, board books.00:14:52.897 --> 00:15:05.887
There were all kinds of books that were A, B, C. E books, but about people like a, B, c, biographies where each page would be a Amelia Earhart in the name of someone.00:15:06.187 --> 00:15:14.947
And I enjoyed reading those with her so much because we, she was very young, so at that point, reading was more of a bonding experience.00:15:15.127 --> 00:15:16.147
But for me.00:15:16.477 --> 00:15:26.257
I was learning so much about these amazing too, some of which I never heard of before, and then would go off and do my own research about these people.00:15:26.377 --> 00:15:29.107
And then I started thinking about author's intent.00:15:29.107 --> 00:15:36.667
You know, why, how are these 26 women chosen for this a, b, c of women's history book, you know?00:15:36.857 --> 00:15:38.567
So there was a lot of it.00:15:38.807 --> 00:15:43.547
Although this is a children's book, there was a lot thinking that was going on for me as well.00:15:44.055 --> 00:15:44.655
Jill P: I love it.00:15:44.655 --> 00:15:45.015
I love it.00:15:45.015 --> 00:15:47.565
There are just so many fantastic books out there.00:15:47.565 --> 00:15:56.865
That's part of the fun of this topic as well, is I just think we are so lucky to have this volume of types of books that are just so fun to, to expose kids to.00:15:56.982 --> 00:16:08.072
Erin Bailey: Yeah, and they're, they keep being more, you know, so we can back and read you know, some classics from our childhood, maybe Goodnight Moon, or, you know, I Love You Forever.00:16:08.072 --> 00:16:10.607
One of the, that's my boss, Alicia Levy's favorite book.00:16:10.922 --> 00:16:12.487
We go back and read those and then there.00:16:12.787 --> 00:16:16.147
So many coming out all, all the time, so it's wonderful.00:16:16.687 --> 00:16:19.207
So I wanna ask you about scaffolding.00:16:19.257 --> 00:16:26.407
What are a few high impact scaffolds that teachers can use while they're read alouds and what, what might like?00:16:27.155 --> 00:16:35.475
Jill P: This is one of those where I think to myself all the time, wow, I wish I'd known this when I was a teacher because I really dug into this in my when I was getting my peachy.00:16:35.805 --> 00:16:42.045
'Cause I think what this is helpful is it's in the moment, you know, when you are a teacher, you've gotta make so many in the moment decisions.00:16:42.045 --> 00:16:43.545
And so what I love about thinking.00:16:43.605 --> 00:16:53.925
Speaking about these scaffolding, and as a parent too, what I love about these scaffolding ideas is that I feel like they're just like
something you have in your back pocket and you can pull out when you're like, wait a minute, okay, I didn't explain that correctly.00:16:53.925 --> 00:16:55.845
Or they're not quite getting it right.00:16:56.085 --> 00:16:58.995
So I like to think of scaffolding in sort of two buckets.00:16:58.995 --> 00:17:05.715
One, scaffolding when you know that child needs some extra support in, in whatever we're talking about, whatever questions being asked.00:17:05.955 --> 00:17:08.025
And then two, scaffolding for when.00:17:08.185 --> 00:17:10.195
They really get it and you're ready to challenge them.00:17:10.195 --> 00:17:10.465
Right?00:17:10.465 --> 00:17:14.785
So talking about that first bucket first, like, so you need some extra support.00:17:14.785 --> 00:17:17.665
So say you've asked a question like, what do you think is gonna happen next?00:17:17.665 --> 00:17:20.305
Or, you know, why did something happen in the story?00:17:20.485 --> 00:17:22.825
And it's clear, it's confusing, right?00:17:22.825 --> 00:17:23.365
It's hard.00:17:23.755 --> 00:17:25.885
There's ways that we can ask another question.00:17:25.885 --> 00:17:35.365
So not, you don't have to just sort of move on, but there's ways to ask another question to support learning, to make that kid one feel confident, like, oh yeah, we do get it.00:17:35.635 --> 00:17:37.195
And two, do some learning.00:17:37.225 --> 00:17:37.615
So.00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:39.960
I like to think of three different ways to do that.00:17:39.990 --> 00:17:42.270
One is to reduce choices, right?00:17:42.270 --> 00:17:47.940
So give say, do you think he's going to go to the store or do you think he's gonna go to school?00:17:47.970 --> 00:17:48.270
Right?00:17:48.270 --> 00:17:54.750
And so then instead of having to think of this world of choices, the child then has two to pick from, right?00:17:54.750 --> 00:17:56.190
Makes it so much easier.00:17:56.775 --> 00:18:00.135
The other one that I like to think about is modeling, right?00:18:00.135 --> 00:18:03.885
Sometimes, especially if it's really challenging modeling.00:18:03.915 --> 00:18:04.575
Oh, you're right.00:18:04.575 --> 00:18:10.545
That one's a kind of a tough question, but I know in that part of the story, he was getting his school bag ready, so I think he's going to school.00:18:10.575 --> 00:18:11.415
Let's think about that.00:18:11.415 --> 00:18:13.845
Where do you think he's gonna go and ask that question again?00:18:14.305 --> 00:18:15.505
Give the child the option.00:18:15.505 --> 00:18:17.875
You've modeled the answer, they're gonna say it with you.00:18:17.875 --> 00:18:18.235
Right?00:18:18.685 --> 00:18:25.345
Or there's kind of a co participation when you can have that conversation and then you even say, let's say it together with little kids.00:18:25.345 --> 00:18:29.215
Even just practicing using their language is a great way to do things.00:18:29.215 --> 00:18:36.625
So you can see how those are really supportive of questions been tough, but I've got these little moves I can make to support some learning.00:18:37.075 --> 00:18:39.500
And then you've got, when you're realizing, okay.00:18:39.860 --> 00:18:42.170
This kid's really getting it, I'm ready to challenge.00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:42.530
Right?00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:57.500
And that's where questions like predicting are fantastic because you're getting a child to think really, you gotta make all sorts of
connections about what's happening in this story before and use, like I said, more than one word, a lot of language to answer that question.00:18:57.830 --> 00:19:04.040
That is a great challenge to get sort of all the neurons firing and, and really sort of thinking through a good answer to that.00:19:05.040 --> 00:19:10.140
And then another thing too I'd like to ask is, why do we think something happened?00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:17.640
Again, you've gotta pull together lots of pieces of information and give your own thought and use a lot of language to explain that.00:19:17.670 --> 00:19:24.510
You can see how these are more challenging, but getting kids to practice language and use their listening comprehension skills.00:19:25.025 --> 00:19:32.765
And another one that's really nice and is especially good when you're, you know, as a parent and child reading 'cause you know so much about each other and you've got some individualized attention happening.00:19:33.125 --> 00:19:41.615
Getting them to generalize to something that's happened in their life is going to happen, hasn't happened, but will sort of saying, oh, we're gonna go to the zoo tomorrow.00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:43.745
We're probably gonna see, what do you think we're gonna see?00:19:43.745 --> 00:19:44.075
Right?00:19:44.315 --> 00:19:52.395
Making that connection to their own lives really solidifies knowledge and solidifies the things that you're talking about and can get them thinking.00:19:52.660 --> 00:19:56.260
Oh, this isn't just happen in this story that we're reading here in my living room, right?00:19:56.530 --> 00:19:59.830
It actually happens in our everyday world, and this is sort of world knowledge.00:19:59.830 --> 00:20:01.960
All of that is really good for kids too.00:20:02.110 --> 00:20:10.030
So again, thinking about scaffolding both in a, how can I support when, when a concept isn't quite getting there, and how can I support to challenge as well.00:20:11.122 --> 00:20:11.812
Erin Bailey: Thank you for that.00:20:11.812 --> 00:20:18.742
I think what I got out of that was also permission to ask questions with limited choices.00:20:19.786 --> 00:20:24.826
Because I think a lot of times, and I worked in a lot of schools that were very inquiry based.00:20:24.826 --> 00:20:35.336
I my background is in International Baccalaureate too, and we're, and we're always pushing teachers to ask big finger questions, ask open-ended questions, I think we should be moving towards that.00:20:35.576 --> 00:20:44.996
But those scaffolds for, especially for our very young children and for our English learners, multilingual learners, if, if they don't yet have the.00:20:45.096 --> 00:20:48.036
Language, it is helpful give them choices.00:20:48.036 --> 00:20:52.086
It can actually build their language or to offer a yes or no question.00:20:52.216 --> 00:20:55.546
Something that they can point to or give a physical response to.00:20:56.274 --> 00:20:57.654
Jill P: That's absolutely right and it's so funny.00:20:57.654 --> 00:21:03.444
That's right in line, sort of what I found out, this is one of the things I studied for my dissertation is like, how are teachers using scaffolding?00:21:03.684 --> 00:21:14.094
Because again, it's hard to do in the moment, but that same reaction I saw a lot of that is that we are asking less of those more supportive questions and think about the confidence it gives.00:21:14.154 --> 00:21:16.194
Gives a child to answer those questions.00:21:16.194 --> 00:21:19.254
So of course, those open-ended questions we're using language.00:21:19.254 --> 00:21:20.874
We absolutely wanna ask those.00:21:21.144 --> 00:21:27.444
But in the situations at which it's necessary, those really high support scaffolding questions are so, so important.00:21:27.624 --> 00:21:29.064
You're giving kids confidence.00:21:29.364 --> 00:21:32.604
You know, I've worked with a lot of speech language pathologists in my life and they always say.00:21:32.904 --> 00:21:35.694
It's great to model saying things with kids.00:21:35.694 --> 00:21:40.644
Modeling that good language is one of our best techniques to build kids' language skills.00:21:40.944 --> 00:21:54.474
So don't feel weird about saying it with kids, saying it to kids being really sort of overt about what the answer is because you're giving that child an excellent model of your language, and that's how kids learn language, right?00:21:54.684 --> 00:21:54.924
So,00:21:55.751 --> 00:21:56.211
Erin Bailey: Thank you.00:21:56.581 --> 00:22:01.141
So talked a lot about, you know, this instructional strategies and the scaffolds.00:22:01.141 --> 00:22:04.261
I have heard some critiques before of you, shouldn't you?00:22:04.321 --> 00:22:11.011
Know, stop and ask questions or do so many things when you're reading aloud to kids, it, it takes away the joy or the experience.00:22:11.011 --> 00:22:24.991
So I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about how educators families can keep that balance of reading aloud joyfully and artfully with intentional vocabulary, building comprehension, print awareness.00:22:25.594 --> 00:22:26.614
Jill P: Yeah, absolutely.00:22:26.614 --> 00:22:32.914
And this is for the work that I'm doing now is building some curriculum and some supplements for teachers to do just that.00:22:32.914 --> 00:22:33.184
Right?00:22:33.184 --> 00:22:35.194
You're getting lessons that help you do just that.00:22:35.464 --> 00:22:43.894
A lot of what say to teachers too, and I think this is a good one for parents too, is flip through that book really quickly before you're gonna read and put sticky notes, right.00:22:44.509 --> 00:22:47.779
Children aren't even gonna notice you, but a sticky note there, you know, it's fine.00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.689
You put a sticky note on like, oh, this is a vocabulary word.00:22:50.689 --> 00:22:59.569
I, this is the perfect time to do some vocabulary instruction with this word in this book, and we'll talk about it for a minute, and then two pages later, there's some really cool print on this page.00:22:59.569 --> 00:23:03.469
And it's got my child's letter J right there in huge cool letters, right?00:23:03.469 --> 00:23:04.219
We're pointing that out.00:23:04.219 --> 00:23:05.094
We're talking about it right?00:23:05.504 --> 00:23:09.884
Or I wanna, this is the first time we're reading it, I'm definitely gonna ask, what do you think is gonna happen?00:23:10.094 --> 00:23:10.424
Right?00:23:10.664 --> 00:23:15.824
So doing those sorts of things and making sure you know your child or you know your class, right?00:23:15.854 --> 00:23:18.494
How many questions really helps and flows.00:23:18.754 --> 00:23:27.964
So I think making sure you are planful and then making sure you're doing squat kind of the right amount, that it's not over and, but you're still getting the story.00:23:28.204 --> 00:23:32.284
And then when I talked about rereading before, I think what's great about rereading.00:23:32.479 --> 00:23:35.359
Is by the time kids have read a story once or twice, they're getting it.00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.399
They're not as much on the edge of their seats, right?00:23:37.399 --> 00:23:39.079
So you can ask a few more questions.00:23:39.709 --> 00:23:43.939
So I always think of that first read aloud, especially if it's a really sort of in-depth story.00:23:44.089 --> 00:23:48.439
I don't ask too many questions just to make sure everybody's getting it and like maybe some prediction.00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:58.419
Then the times after is when you can really load up some of the questions because they're just reading it 'cause they like that story, but they're, they know what's happening and you're ready to ask a few more questions.00:23:58.419 --> 00:23:58.719
Right.00:23:59.139 --> 00:24:05.499
The other piece, as I already talked about information books, a lot of what I love to say to teachers and parents is give them permission.00:24:05.824 --> 00:24:07.479
You do not need to read the whole book.00:24:07.509 --> 00:24:15.129
There is no rule that says you have to sit down with an information book that doesn't have a beginning, middle, and end and read the entire thing.00:24:15.189 --> 00:24:15.999
You really don't.00:24:17.169 --> 00:24:17.949
A lot of 'em are big.00:24:18.159 --> 00:24:21.039
So I'd like to do cool things and kids love this.00:24:21.069 --> 00:24:22.839
Teach 'em about what a table of contents is.00:24:23.139 --> 00:24:24.469
Go to the table of contents and say.00:24:25.184 --> 00:24:27.374
Which, which couple pages should we read today?00:24:27.404 --> 00:24:31.154
And you get to pick from the table of contents and you get to show them that information.00:24:31.154 --> 00:24:33.614
Books don't always have to start and end right.00:24:33.614 --> 00:24:39.524
You can move to page 12 and read the cool thing about the pterodactyl and not start at the beginning.00:24:39.804 --> 00:24:46.974
So, you know, giving yourself that permission, especially with information books, to read small snippets at a time, I think is is super useful.00:24:48.076 --> 00:25:00.466
Erin Bailey: I think too, with very, very young children, you know, 1, 2, 3 year olds, it's absolutely okay not to read it beginning to end or read every words on the page because really they're just, they're exploring at that point.00:25:00.616 --> 00:25:09.626
it, it's about setting up good reading behaviors and setting up good routines for, for yourself to cultivate that joy of reading.00:25:09.794 --> 00:25:10.664
Jill P: Exactly.00:25:10.664 --> 00:25:16.004
It's the joint attention, it's the interaction back and forth, and it's the showing kids literally how a book works.00:25:16.454 --> 00:25:16.724
You know?00:25:16.724 --> 00:25:20.174
You need to learn that a book opens like this, right?00:25:20.324 --> 00:25:22.724
And that print moves from one direction to another.00:25:22.874 --> 00:25:28.424
Those sorts of things are all the really cool things you can be doing when you're reading it with that age group.00:25:28.424 --> 00:25:30.194
It doesn't have to be every single word.00:25:30.194 --> 00:25:31.064
That's absolutely right.00:25:31.124 --> 00:25:31.394
Yeah.00:25:32.361 --> 00:25:38.111
Erin Bailey: So you did mention before, I wish I knew this when I was teacher and I same thing to myself all the time.00:25:38.161 --> 00:25:47.221
What do you think are the most common read aloud misses that you've, you either experienced yourself or you observed even from well-intentioned teachers and family?00:25:48.409 --> 00:25:49.099
Jill P: For sure.00:25:49.099 --> 00:25:54.409
I, I, some of it too is, you know, I felt like I needed to ask the same questions or do the same routines with every book.00:25:54.409 --> 00:26:00.529
Like I said, like the title and author, don't need to ask the same exact types of questions every time.00:26:00.829 --> 00:26:04.459
That's why I really like this idea of being a little bit planful about.00:26:04.459 --> 00:26:04.469
Okay.00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:09.129
With this read aloud, I'm really gonna focus on these types of questions or those types of questions.00:26:09.129 --> 00:26:13.089
So I, I think that's like a, sort of a, a common mistake too.00:26:13.399 --> 00:26:22.369
And then, you know, I've said print knowledge before, but I, I find, you know, in part of the work that I've done, I've seen lots of read alouds and so we see what teachers point out or not.00:26:22.594 --> 00:26:23.854
It's really not that much Print.00:26:24.154 --> 00:26:26.614
Teachers aren't pointing out, print that often.00:26:26.614 --> 00:26:28.024
And I think about back to myself.00:26:28.294 --> 00:26:34.234
I was really focusing on the questions about what the story was about and a little bit less on these concepts of print.00:26:34.234 --> 00:26:37.504
Like I said, how print works on a page, how it's different than a picture.00:26:37.689 --> 00:26:38.919
What direction it's moving.00:26:38.919 --> 00:26:48.279
The names of letters, the sounds of letters, but giving kids that concept of like, we couldn't be reading this page as you know, this, these words off the page.00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:54.939
If we didn't understand that all of these little symbols have a sound and a name, and that pulling together is a word like.00:26:54.979 --> 00:27:00.619
This is the perfect time to get kids talking about print and pointing out print.00:27:00.929 --> 00:27:03.419
And I think that's, that's one of the more common mistakes.00:27:03.419 --> 00:27:10.229
You talk a lot about the story and a little bit less about the print and the, the components of it, which is really key to reading success as well.00:27:10.594 --> 00:27:11.014
Mm-hmm.00:27:11.301 --> 00:27:13.666
Erin Bailey: You know, I had kind of a similar experience.00:27:14.326 --> 00:27:16.996
Reading aloud to my daughter, which I shared before.00:27:16.996 --> 00:27:18.076
She's, she's five.00:27:18.076 --> 00:27:31.276
There's a book called Big and there are several pages in the middle of the book that are wordless pictures, which was a great opportunity to teach about print because we got to those pages and my daughter said, why aren't you reading anything?00:27:31.546 --> 00:27:31.846
I said,00:27:32.916 --> 00:27:34.656
There's no words on this page.00:27:34.656 --> 00:27:44.676
So the author and illustrator just want us to look at this page and, know, then we talked about the illustrations and the character's feelings on those page.00:27:44.676 --> 00:27:50.686
So I think there are lots of opportunities to infuse print knowledge into our, our read alouds.00:27:51.619 --> 00:27:52.369
Jill P: exactly.00:27:52.369 --> 00:27:57.349
Like, you know, there's a meaning, there's a reason we need to write down these little symbols.00:27:57.349 --> 00:28:00.949
Getting that concept is so cool and so beautiful.00:28:00.949 --> 00:28:03.319
And the perfect way to do it during a read aloud, Yeah.00:28:03.961 --> 00:28:13.981
Erin Bailey: So for families listening, what are two or three simple tips that they could start integrating before, during, after reading tomorrow into their story time routine?00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:16.409
Jill P: Yeah, absolutely.00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.309
So I mean, this is what's fun about, you know, knowing your child really well.00:28:20.309 --> 00:28:22.259
Like the first step is choosing that book.00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:25.559
What's cool is like, you know, like for example, an information book.00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:26.529
Is dinosaurs.00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:27.399
It is butterflies.00:28:27.399 --> 00:28:28.509
It is rocks it.00:28:28.509 --> 00:28:28.899
Right?00:28:29.409 --> 00:28:33.849
So like you have that, that knowledge of like, oh, I'm gonna get an information book on this topic.00:28:33.849 --> 00:28:35.679
I know this is really gonna hit the spot.00:28:35.679 --> 00:28:36.009
Right.00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:40.189
That, you know, those books that will engage them and you know, which books they wanna reread.00:28:40.309 --> 00:28:42.529
Like I said, there's not a problem with rereading.00:28:42.529 --> 00:28:43.009
It's actually.00:28:43.294 --> 00:28:44.014
A benefit.00:28:44.014 --> 00:28:45.514
It's a great thing.00:28:45.574 --> 00:28:49.294
Like you can infuse so much knowledge with your child when you're rereading.00:28:49.324 --> 00:28:54.334
'cause again, sometimes you're asking language questions, sometimes you're asking some vocabulary within that language.00:28:54.334 --> 00:28:55.744
Sometimes you're pointing out print.00:28:56.014 --> 00:28:58.684
You can do so much when you reread a book.00:28:58.684 --> 00:28:59.074
Right.00:28:59.534 --> 00:29:06.704
And then I think what's also fun about sort of the family piece of this is you can tie in things you've been talking about when you read your book into.00:29:07.609 --> 00:29:09.469
Your day or the next morning, right.00:29:09.589 --> 00:29:14.359
Let's say you were talking about the sound of the letter S when you're reading Silly Sally.00:29:14.824 --> 00:29:22.744
The next day, or you know, you know, later in that day, start pointing out other words that you're encountering in the grocery store, for example, that start with an S, right?00:29:22.864 --> 00:29:27.754
You can then anything you're doing in that real aloud, you can then bring up again and again and again.00:29:27.754 --> 00:29:28.054
Right?00:29:28.144 --> 00:29:30.194
So, I think that's really helpful too.00:29:30.654 --> 00:29:39.234
And then, you know, like what I was saying with the scaffolding, one of the really good ways to get kids to really build background knowledge to truly understand what they're learning.00:29:39.474 --> 00:29:47.334
To use that good language to keep those new vocabulary words they know really in their head is to tie them to their own life.00:29:47.784 --> 00:29:48.804
All of us are the same.00:29:48.804 --> 00:30:01.014
When we have knowledge that makes sense to us, that ties to the background knowledge we already have, it's really gonna sit in your head, it's gonna be solidified, and so you know your child really well, you can start having those conversations.00:30:01.374 --> 00:30:07.074
That say things like, oh, that animal giraffe, remember when we saw that giraffe, x, y, z time.00:30:07.074 --> 00:30:07.254
Right.00:30:07.254 --> 00:30:09.954
That's really gonna help make things concrete for kids.00:30:09.954 --> 00:30:20.674
So there's some really great things, I think that sort of more individual conversations when you can, you can bring out when it's, you know, a, an a caregiver and a child too that are really special.00:30:21.101 --> 00:30:21.401
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:30:22.196 --> 00:30:27.506
So we always end this podcast by asking what does reading inspire for you?00:30:29.339 --> 00:30:30.209
Jill P: So many things.00:30:31.219 --> 00:30:32.899
I just, you know, in general.00:30:33.544 --> 00:30:43.174
Like I said before, I just love that reading is this gift we can give people for the rest of their lives to open new knowledge for the rest of their lives.00:30:43.474 --> 00:30:47.464
And as an avid reader, joy, it can bring you so much joy, right?00:30:47.764 --> 00:30:49.774
So I just am so inspired by that.00:30:49.994 --> 00:30:51.884
So that's just always a thought process.00:30:52.244 --> 00:31:00.074
But honestly, you know, one of the things that I have been fascinated by and what I've really inspired by reading lately, the more I sort of dig into this research world, is.00:31:00.569 --> 00:31:06.539
How our brains work, how kids' brains work to be readers is just so inspiring to me.00:31:06.989 --> 00:31:11.489
You know, we learn language by being immersed in language rich environments, right?00:31:11.489 --> 00:31:15.599
When we're sort of, you know, surrounded by it, we learn these language skills.00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:22.859
You know, we build that one specific part of our brain that we know is sort of language based, but for reading, we need direct.00:31:23.069 --> 00:31:25.139
An explicit instruction to learn.00:31:25.469 --> 00:31:29.369
We need to build pathways between different parts of our brain to become readers.00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:33.659
You know, the part that's language, the part that know letters, the parts that builds Z sounds together.00:31:33.989 --> 00:31:38.969
And so what I think is so inspiring when we are both reading and we're instructing and reading and we're building.00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:48.279
Brains is that by having these conversations, by doing these read alouds, by talking about early literacy with kids, we're literally building their brains.00:31:48.579 --> 00:31:54.279
We're literally building neural pathways between the parts of the brain that we need to work together.00:31:54.534 --> 00:31:55.614
To learn to read.00:31:55.614 --> 00:31:57.384
And to me that's a miracle.00:31:57.384 --> 00:32:04.584
It's fantastic that the things that we can be doing as adults with kids can then build their brains to give them this gift of reading.00:32:04.584 --> 00:32:11.914
So lately that's been inspiring me to think about us as builders of really strong brains to, to give this gift of reading.00:32:12.446 --> 00:32:16.196
Erin Bailey: I love that Jill reading is the gift that keeps giving and I think00:32:17.066 --> 00:32:22.131
your mathematics background coming back there too about how we can build.00:32:22.861 --> 00:32:26.371
Build their brains through, through reading have that be a gift for them.00:32:26.371 --> 00:32:27.391
Thank you so much.00:32:27.441 --> 00:32:31.041
And thank you for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.00:32:31.041 --> 00:32:36.681
I hope today's conversation sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading.00:32:36.831 --> 00:32:45.381
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