Trusting Readers with Dr. Jennifer Scoggin and Hannah Schneewind
Dr. Erin Bailey sits down with Dr. Jennifer Scoggin and Hannah Schneewind, the founders of Trusting Readers and co-authors of Trusting Readers: Powerful Practices for Independent Reading. The two share how their paths as classroom teachers led them to literacy consulting, and why trust — in teachers, in students, and in the independent reading process itself — sits at the heart of everything they do. They break down the four pillars of effective independent reading: time, choice, talk, and teacher support, making the case that independent reading is genuine instructional time, not simply a period where kids happen to have books open. The conversation also offers practical tips for families looking to nurture reading habits at home, highlights the strong relationship between reading and writing, and examines how a student's sense of identity as a reader shapes their growth. Both guests close with reflections on how reading builds connection — with characters on the page, with the people we love, and within the classroom community itself.
About Dr. Jennifer Scoggin:
Dr. Jennifer Scoggin has been a teacher, author, speaker, curriculum writer, and literacy consultant. Jennifer’s interest in the evolving identities of both students and teachers and her growing obsession with children’s literature led her to and informs her work.
Jen began her career teaching first and second grades in Harlem, New York. In her current role as a literacy consultant, Jennifer collaborates with teachers to create engaging literacy opportunities for children. She holds a doctorate in curriculum and instruction from Teachers College, Columbia University and has previously published two books about literacy instruction and life in the classroom.
Jen lives in Connecticut with her two children, her husband, and her dog.
About Hannah Schneewind:
Hannah Schneewind has been a teacher, staff developer, curriculum writer, keynote speaker and national literacy consultant. She brings with her over 25 years of experience to the education world. Hannah’s interest in student and teacher agency and her belief in the power of books informs her work with schools.
Hannah began her career as a first grade teacher at P.S. 321 in Brooklyn, New York, and her classroom was used as a model classroom for teachers around the city and country. The trust the administrators placed in her along with the culture of collaboration in the school formed her belief in the power and possibilities of schools.
Hannah lives in Connecticut with her three children, her husband, and the deer who eat her garden each summer.
Links:
- Trusting Readers website: Trusting Readers
- Trusting Readers Book: Trusting Readers by Jennifer Scoggin, Hannah Schneewind. Powerful
- LinkedIn: (23) Trusting Readers LLC: Overview | LinkedIn
Subscribe and listen on Apple podcasts
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Erin Bailey: Welcome to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.00:00:02.908 --> 00:00:04.678
I'm your host, Dr. Aaron Bailey.00:00:04.678 --> 00:00:08.458
This podcast celebrates the power of books and the joy of reading.00:00:08.698 --> 00:00:15.718
In each episode, we talk with educators, librarians, families, authors, and literacy champions to explore one big question.00:00:15.988 --> 00:00:17.698
What does reading inspire for you?00:00:17.938 --> 00:00:22.978
Through stories, research, and real world experiences from classrooms, libraries, and homes.00:00:23.128 --> 00:00:26.278
We explore what literacy looks like and why it matters.00:00:26.698 --> 00:00:32.188
Whether you're nurturing young readers, shaping learning spaces, or simply love a good book, we're glad you're here.00:00:32.398 --> 00:00:33.508
Let's get inspired.00:00:33.688 --> 00:00:35.398
Today I'm chatting with Dr.00:00:35.398 --> 00:00:41.758
Jennifer s Goggin and Hannah sne, wind Founders of Trusting Readers.00:00:41.998 --> 00:00:45.388
Welcome, and they also have this book, trusting Readers.00:00:45.448 --> 00:00:46.303
Oh, there you go.00:00:47.143 --> 00:00:52.633
Powerful practices for independent reading, which I will be sure to link in the show notes below.00:00:52.813 --> 00:00:53.443
Welcome.00:00:53.443 --> 00:00:54.913
Thank you for being here.00:00:55.103 --> 00:00:58.853
I'd love if you would each start with just a bit about your journey into literacy.00:00:58.853 --> 00:01:05.543
What drew you to teaching and how did this eventually read to lead to you writing the book?00:01:05.543 --> 00:01:06.023
Trusting readers.00:01:06.713 --> 00:01:07.343
Jen Scoggin: Okay, great.00:01:07.343 --> 00:01:08.753
Well, first, thank you for having us.00:01:08.753 --> 00:01:12.053
We're so excited to be here and to get to talk to you.00:01:12.448 --> 00:01:16.438
About some of our favorite things, but I come from a family of teachers.00:01:16.748 --> 00:01:19.538
So my mom was a teacher, my uncle's a teacher, lots of people in my family.00:01:19.538 --> 00:01:23.888
So I grew up in an elementary school classroom, hanging up bulletin boards for my mom.00:01:24.258 --> 00:01:31.098
And then I was lucky enough to have some really great professors in college, despite the fact that I said I'd never go into education.00:01:31.098 --> 00:01:33.978
I took an education class and got hooked.00:01:34.078 --> 00:01:37.378
And so I, out of college, I started teaching in Harlem, New York.00:01:37.378 --> 00:01:39.298
I taught first and second grade.00:01:40.028 --> 00:01:41.798
And I think it, a lot of it is luck.00:01:41.798 --> 00:01:43.928
I worked with some amazing colleagues.00:01:43.928 --> 00:01:49.478
I had this really fantastic principal who encouraged me to pursue my doctorate, and so I did that.00:01:49.478 --> 00:01:54.428
And then I met more fabulous and interesting people who introduced me to Pam Allen.00:01:54.708 --> 00:01:57.408
Pam Allen was my mentor for a very long time.00:01:57.408 --> 00:02:00.353
She guided me into literacy consulting.00:02:00.888 --> 00:02:02.148
And taught me the ropes.00:02:02.148 --> 00:02:04.128
And so I made that next step.00:02:04.378 --> 00:02:11.128
While I was there, I was lucky enough to meet Hannah and I began talking and collaborating a lot first as consultants.00:02:11.158 --> 00:02:22.173
And then it naturally made sense for us to start something to together because our conversations led us to the ideas that are the basis of trusting readers.00:02:22.713 --> 00:02:24.813
But I'll let Hannah talk a little bit more about that.00:02:26.463 --> 00:02:31.983
Hannah Schneewind: Yeah, so like Jen, I actually started off teaching first and second grade.00:02:31.983 --> 00:02:39.753
I was teaching in Brooklyn, New York, and I was lucky enough to teach at a wonderful school full of.00:02:40.033 --> 00:02:42.133
Absolutely fabulous teachers.00:02:42.313 --> 00:02:56.353
So as a brand new teacher, when I was struggling with something or I didn't know how to do something, I would walk next door and I would
knock on Connie's door and I would say, hi, may I watch as you do your independent reading, or May I watch as you do writing workshop?00:02:56.353 --> 00:02:58.423
And Connie would say, of course.00:02:58.453 --> 00:03:02.263
And then the next day I would go to the other side and ask that person.00:03:02.263 --> 00:03:07.603
So I taught there for 10 years and I was just so lucky to have.00:03:07.923 --> 00:03:12.243
So many fabulous teachers from whom to learn.00:03:12.843 --> 00:03:24.678
I had a professor in college who always told us, you can decide that you want to teach 25 students to read, or you might decide that you want to teach 25.00:03:25.258 --> 00:03:31.528
Teachers to teach 25 students to read, and she said, you know, both are fabulous.00:03:31.948 --> 00:03:41.698
I had always kind of carried that with me, and so after being a classroom teacher for 10 years, I decided I did want to go ahead and work with adults.00:03:42.313 --> 00:03:49.783
But I was really lucky because after doing that for 10 years, I went back to the classroom and taught first grade for another five years.00:03:50.233 --> 00:03:55.243
So I think one of the things that is so fabulous about teaching is that it's very flexible.00:03:55.243 --> 00:04:01.123
You can be in the classroom, you can be out of the classroom, you can have different roles, and they're all really interesting.00:04:02.253 --> 00:04:02.373
Jen Scoggin: And00:04:02.428 --> 00:04:02.908
Erin Bailey: I really love00:04:03.093 --> 00:04:04.443
Jen Scoggin: and I, oh, sorry.00:04:04.533 --> 00:04:18.643
For, I think when we were all those experiences, just to get to what led us to trusting readers in particular, I think all of those experiences led us to see that at times there is a level of mistrust.00:04:18.693 --> 00:04:25.293
Just systemically like trusting teachers to be able to do the work of teaching 20 22, 25 individual.00:04:25.958 --> 00:04:27.818
People how to grow as readers.00:04:27.818 --> 00:04:35.718
There's a lack of trust that independent reading is enough that it is robust enough to support kids as they're on their journey to read.00:04:35.718 --> 00:04:39.408
And then the idea that we can't trust students like actually want.00:04:40.133 --> 00:04:44.433
Do the work without a lot of handholding that that they wanna do that.00:04:44.433 --> 00:04:54.273
And we saw that repeated kind of unconsciously, not intentionally, but over and over again, and that we kept having the same conversation about this idea of trust.00:04:54.273 --> 00:04:58.203
And that's what really led us to write the book and then to start our own consulting group.00:04:59.648 --> 00:04:59.888
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:04:59.918 --> 00:05:00.338
Thank you.00:05:00.338 --> 00:05:01.928
I appreciate that so much.00:05:01.928 --> 00:05:14.303
I mean, certainly I've been a teacher in the classroom and face those issues of trust and I think we see that a lot now, for better or for worse with a lot of mandates and scripted curriculum.00:05:14.303 --> 00:05:18.863
And, you know, I've had this conversation with many colleagues that some teachers, they.00:05:19.563 --> 00:05:27.393
They appreciate scripted curriculums because they really want to focus on their teaching, the art of teaching itself.00:05:27.423 --> 00:05:37.863
So not having to go out and write their own curriculum takes away one burden for them, whereas others, myself included, are a little bit more on the creative energy side.00:05:37.863 --> 00:05:40.023
They wanna write their own curriculum.00:05:40.023 --> 00:05:47.203
So, having these kind of mandates of you have to follow the page by page guides leaves us feeling a little stifled and with.00:05:47.408 --> 00:05:51.338
Less creative outlets that we wanted when we went into teaching.00:05:52.253 --> 00:05:53.653
Jen Scoggin: Yeah, absolutely.00:05:54.558 --> 00:05:59.418
Erin Bailey: So you talked a little bit about this, but you started this organization trusting readers.00:05:59.658 --> 00:06:05.658
What were those core needs in literacy education that you were hoping to address through the your organization?00:06:07.146 --> 00:06:12.006
Jen Scoggin: Well, we knew that after we wrote the book, we really wanted to partner with schools in ways that.00:06:12.286 --> 00:06:14.536
Emphasized independent reading.00:06:14.536 --> 00:06:25.526
I think in both our professional experience working with teachers as consultants, but both in the classroom, like you were saying, it feels like, there are a lot of different ways that teachers approach teaching.00:06:25.806 --> 00:06:29.946
Whether it be you'd, like the curriculum feels safe for you or it.00:06:30.191 --> 00:06:32.531
You know, the curriculum is something you wanna write yourself.00:06:32.811 --> 00:06:36.201
The research on independent reading, is it, there's just too much of it.00:06:36.231 --> 00:06:39.651
It's just too clear about how beneficial it is for children.00:06:39.861 --> 00:06:51.281
We also see it as beneficial for teachers because it allows us insight to see how our students are doing when they're actually applying all those skills and strategies to something that has meaning and purpose in their mind.00:06:51.281 --> 00:06:55.901
So, you know, we really wanted to push that agenda in schools to really.00:06:56.056 --> 00:07:00.616
To promote that message and then to support teachers in feeling like it is enough.00:07:00.856 --> 00:07:05.846
This is what you do, this is what it does, this is what your kids can do inside of it.00:07:05.846 --> 00:07:11.606
And while we were doing all that work in schools, this idea of reading identity.00:07:11.936 --> 00:07:18.626
Was something that we were interested in, but just like sparked all kinds of conversations with teachers.00:07:18.626 --> 00:07:29.536
We'd go to conferences and it was a piece of our presentation, but all anyone wanted to talk about, and when we were in classrooms and we mentioned it, it really seemed to resonate with people in a way that we weren't in.00:07:29.586 --> 00:07:31.656
Anticipating we were excited about it.00:07:31.656 --> 00:07:41.806
But this idea of really thinking through both the the cognitive and the affective, like the skills and strategies and the emotional part of teaching, really resonated.00:07:41.806 --> 00:07:53.746
And so we spent a lot of our energy on looking into that, both from the research standpoint and like, what does that mean in terms of practical application in the classroom to make reading instruction better?00:07:53.866 --> 00:07:59.836
And so from there, our work kind of took on a new direction.00:07:59.836 --> 00:08:15.296
We started talking about it and presenting on it and, it felt a little bit at times in recent years, kind of in contrast to some of the scripted mandates that teachers are facing, that they didn't feel as if there were, there was space for that.00:08:15.296 --> 00:08:16.646
It felt like there was a tension.00:08:16.646 --> 00:08:29.606
And so naturally our work has morphed a little bit into some of the pre-K space where teachers are looking for more support, but there's a little bit more freedom and people wanna have that foundational piece of like.00:08:29.821 --> 00:08:35.281
What does it mean to grow somebody who's confident enough to tackle something that big at that age?00:08:35.531 --> 00:08:42.731
And so now in addition to working in elementary and middle school classrooms, we're spending a lot of time in pre-K classrooms.00:08:43.041 --> 00:08:44.811
Hannah's in pre-Ks in New York.00:08:45.051 --> 00:08:49.461
I'm in a non-profit nature-based pre-K outside all day with.00:08:49.871 --> 00:09:01.121
Little ties and and that's also brought us into work with other nonprofits like Read To Grow, that's based here in Connecticut that's focused on getting books into the hands of parents and caregivers.00:09:01.121 --> 00:09:01.421
So.00:09:02.281 --> 00:09:08.131
Oh, it's a long way of saying that this idea of reading identity has really brought us into classrooms in new ways.00:09:08.191 --> 00:09:11.431
It's changed the way we research and talk at conferences.00:09:11.431 --> 00:09:19.871
It's brought us in front of parents and pre-K teachers and really has kind of taken on a life of its own in our work, in our organization.00:09:21.381 --> 00:09:22.011
Erin Bailey: Amazing.00:09:22.011 --> 00:09:24.801
I wanna join your outdoor nature program.00:09:24.811 --> 00:09:25.051
That00:09:25.251 --> 00:09:26.211
Jen Scoggin: amazing, you know.00:09:27.711 --> 00:09:31.041
Erin Bailey: Hannah your philosophy emphasizes trust.00:09:31.071 --> 00:09:33.981
Can you unpack trust a little bit for us?00:09:33.981 --> 00:09:36.681
And why is trust so central to your approach?00:09:37.751 --> 00:09:38.501
Hannah Schneewind: Sure.00:09:38.621 --> 00:09:51.151
So when Jen and I first were working with teachers and then doing research for our book, we heard from teachers a lot that even though they knew the importance of independent reading.00:09:52.096 --> 00:09:56.656
They were always a little concerned about doing it in the classroom.00:09:56.986 --> 00:10:01.426
They were afraid that an administrator would walk in and to an administrator.00:10:01.426 --> 00:10:10.036
It might look as if they were just sitting on the floor next to a child, or they were just sitting with two children having a conversation.00:10:10.456 --> 00:10:13.756
In reality, what had happened was that the teacher had.00:10:14.046 --> 00:10:16.806
Very explicit plans about what she was teaching.00:10:16.806 --> 00:10:21.246
Those students, she had looked at data, she had looked at what she had taught them previously.00:10:21.246 --> 00:10:31.806
She was being very clear about what the students needed and what they, she could teach them, but it didn't necessarily look like that from the outside.00:10:31.806 --> 00:10:34.326
So that's when we started realizing, oh wow.00:10:34.386 --> 00:10:42.756
So that's kind of one crisis of trust, which is that administrators have pressure put on them and then they in turn.00:10:43.046 --> 00:10:46.496
Might put pressure on teachers inadvertently.00:10:46.766 --> 00:10:52.376
And so then teachers didn't necessarily trust the admins to see what was happening.00:10:52.976 --> 00:10:57.446
And then it led the teachers to not necessarily trust their students.00:10:57.506 --> 00:11:01.016
So again, the teachers knew that independent reading was so important.00:11:01.376 --> 00:11:05.576
They felt as if they had to have a lot of accountability measure.00:11:05.576 --> 00:11:10.916
It's like you have to write a certain number of post-its in your book, or you have to fill out this reading log.00:11:11.396 --> 00:11:13.766
Even when they sometimes knew that maybe kids were faking it.00:11:14.746 --> 00:11:18.736
But they felt as if, oh, well, can I really trust my students?00:11:19.036 --> 00:11:24.586
And again, all of this is inadvertent, but it just is what we noticed was happening.00:11:24.976 --> 00:11:28.126
And so we trust teachers.00:11:28.126 --> 00:11:32.866
First of all, teachers have an extraordinary amount of expertise, right?00:11:33.136 --> 00:11:35.206
Teachers keep up with all the research.00:11:35.521 --> 00:11:40.051
They follow their curriculum or they follow standards.00:11:40.261 --> 00:11:44.461
They know a lot about children's literature and they know the students in front of them.00:11:44.761 --> 00:11:49.171
So we trust teachers' expertise to make those decisions.00:11:49.471 --> 00:11:51.661
We also have to really trust the students.00:11:51.841 --> 00:11:54.691
So Jen said we do a lot of work in pre-K.00:11:54.871 --> 00:11:56.941
I will talk to three and four year olds.00:11:57.151 --> 00:11:59.166
They have a lot to say about what they want to read.00:11:59.816 --> 00:12:01.556
You know, they have favorites.00:12:01.796 --> 00:12:03.296
They have books they don't like.00:12:03.296 --> 00:12:06.206
They have books they think are boring, and they're three and four.00:12:06.536 --> 00:12:15.776
So we also have to trust that no matter what age students come into our classrooms, they have a lot of opinions about themselves and what they want to read.00:12:15.806 --> 00:12:16.946
And so we need to.00:12:17.276 --> 00:12:19.316
Trust their view of themselves.00:12:19.316 --> 00:12:26.186
We need to trust their opinions about reading and we need to trust that at independent reading time they really are reading.00:12:26.756 --> 00:12:31.581
So trust goes, you know, plays through a lot of aspects of this work.00:12:33.171 --> 00:12:33.551
Erin Bailey: Thank you.00:12:33.551 --> 00:12:39.491
I'm wondering, Hannah, if you can also share a little bit about independent reading.00:12:39.521 --> 00:12:41.651
'cause that is the topic of your book.00:12:41.991 --> 00:12:47.721
What is it, what does it look like in the classroom, and what does the research say about independent reading?00:12:47.721 --> 00:12:47.781
I.00:12:48.996 --> 00:12:56.256
Hannah Schneewind: So if you are in a room of a hundred teachers, a hundred researchers, and you say, what is independent reading?00:12:56.481 --> 00:13:02.601
You are gonna get a hundred different answers and so that's why I love your question so much.00:13:02.841 --> 00:13:05.481
There's no agreement about what it is.00:13:05.991 --> 00:13:12.771
So that's why interesting readers, Jen and I actually start the book by defining independent reading.00:13:13.371 --> 00:13:18.471
And so we define independent reading as using the principles of.00:13:19.036 --> 00:13:23.896
Time choice talk and teacher support.00:13:24.916 --> 00:13:29.356
So children need time to talk about books, right?00:13:29.476 --> 00:13:35.386
I always get a little nervous if I'm in a classroom and the classroom is too quiet, right?00:13:35.476 --> 00:13:35.866
That's weird.00:13:37.201 --> 00:13:38.761
Kids want to talk about their books.00:13:39.181 --> 00:13:43.201
They do need to be able to choose what they want to read.00:13:43.471 --> 00:13:49.321
And when we talk about choice in independent reading, we are really talking about guided choice.00:13:49.561 --> 00:13:51.781
So it's not that you could choose literally anything.00:13:51.991 --> 00:13:54.001
We do need to support kids.00:13:54.321 --> 00:13:59.631
So that they are choosing some books that they can read with accuracy, fluency, and comprehension.00:13:59.691 --> 00:14:04.131
And then they're choosing other books that they just want to read because they're interesting.00:14:04.131 --> 00:14:06.501
They love them, they heard another friend read them.00:14:06.921 --> 00:14:09.771
But again, the teacher is very involved in that.00:14:10.221 --> 00:14:12.231
They need a lot of.00:14:13.056 --> 00:14:14.106
Teacher support.00:14:14.226 --> 00:14:19.326
So that's one of the misunderstandings that we find about independent reading.00:14:19.686 --> 00:14:24.246
So we always say independent reading without teacher support is not independent Reading.00:14:24.306 --> 00:14:25.746
It's kids with books.00:14:25.866 --> 00:14:28.716
And kids with books is also important, right?00:14:28.716 --> 00:14:31.836
We know that there's some students who don't have access to books at home.00:14:31.836 --> 00:14:34.206
That's why your organization is so important.00:14:34.746 --> 00:14:41.256
But independent reading really is an instructional time, and so the teacher is very involved.00:14:41.931 --> 00:14:43.461
In independent reading.00:14:43.791 --> 00:14:54.321
So it is that time plus choice, plus talk, and then teacher support that really make independent reading.00:14:54.371 --> 00:14:55.541
So important.00:14:56.886 --> 00:14:57.186
Erin Bailey: Thank you.00:14:57.186 --> 00:14:58.416
That's so helpful, Hannah.00:14:58.416 --> 00:15:14.526
And I think what I'm noticing is it's that word independent even that people have various definitions of, so as you're describing, independent reading is not children just sitting by themselves and the teacher and I think there's some models out there.00:15:15.016 --> 00:15:20.656
In which all the children are reading and the teacher is reading by themself too.00:15:20.836 --> 00:15:29.026
And what you're saying is not that, it's that the teacher during this independent reading time is actually teaching as well.00:15:29.026 --> 00:15:38.246
And there's a lot of thought and planning that goes into it to meet each student what they're working on in their individual reading needs during that time.00:15:39.356 --> 00:15:40.346
Jen Scoggin: Yeah, very well said.00:15:40.376 --> 00:15:41.396
Yeah, exactly right.00:15:42.531 --> 00:15:42.951
Erin Bailey: Great.00:15:43.201 --> 00:15:45.001
So let's chat about the book a little bit.00:15:45.001 --> 00:15:53.591
So your book, the title, which again, I'll link in the show notes, trusting Readers, powerful Practices for Independent Reading has resonated with so many educators.00:15:53.921 --> 00:16:01.266
What was the reason that you wrote this book together and what impact has it had and do you hope that it will have.00:16:03.141 --> 00:16:09.791
Jen Scoggin: Well, I can't imagine writing anything without Hannah, so I feel like the two of us at this point, we share a brain essentially.00:16:10.181 --> 00:16:11.051
On these things.00:16:11.051 --> 00:16:23.706
So for the two of us, I mean, again, it's so feeling so passionately about independent reading and wanting to give I think to see that, to see independent reading as central and not an afterthought.00:16:23.706 --> 00:16:31.506
I think that's another thing that we saw over and over, is that independent reading would happen when there was time left over from all these other.00:16:32.556 --> 00:16:38.316
Things that needed to get done in a literacy block rather than that being the central piece.00:16:38.376 --> 00:16:55.266
And the other instructional tools, which are very important, like small group instruction, the read aloud, shared reading, whole group instruction,
all of those things are very important, but they're all in the service of, in independent reading rather than it being an afterthought.00:16:55.266 --> 00:17:00.846
And in the schools in which we worked, we saw that shift start to happen and teachers.00:17:01.561 --> 00:17:07.841
I think it's trusting independent reading, but also sometimes trusting themselves, like trusting themselves.00:17:07.841 --> 00:17:11.261
And that trust may have been taken from them for various reasons.00:17:11.261 --> 00:17:13.151
Just to trust, like, oh, I can do this.00:17:13.151 --> 00:17:17.121
Like I, I can inspire my students to do that.00:17:17.241 --> 00:17:18.261
When they aren't reading.00:17:18.291 --> 00:17:23.541
'cause it's not just because you say it's time to do independent reading doesn't mean they're all going to magically do it.00:17:23.591 --> 00:17:29.081
That we are able to create an environment or a community where the kids do want to do that.00:17:29.081 --> 00:17:37.241
When we put those principles in place that Hannah was talking about, so we do feel like that has been a really positive impact on students in classrooms.00:17:37.241 --> 00:17:48.301
And the other thing I think in our book is that it was very important to us that independent reading and the way teachers implemented it and the way that they talked about children was incredibly asset minded.00:17:49.021 --> 00:17:52.141
So when we're looking at independent reading in a classroom.00:17:53.016 --> 00:17:55.176
Knowing it will not go beautifully.00:17:55.176 --> 00:17:56.166
The first, that's insane.00:17:56.166 --> 00:17:57.426
Like of course it's not going to go.00:17:57.426 --> 00:18:00.186
You snap your fingers and it's like a picture perfect.00:18:00.546 --> 00:18:13.086
But that the way to create that community is by noticing what it is your students are doing, what they are interested in, where they do exhibit strength and building upon that.00:18:13.356 --> 00:18:15.846
And that's where we had a lot of success.00:18:16.211 --> 00:18:22.471
That's a shift from a lot of schools, which are encouraged to look at data.00:18:22.471 --> 00:18:27.601
And of course data is important, but a lot of those data conversations tend to be deficit oriented.00:18:27.751 --> 00:18:28.981
What aren't students doing?00:18:28.981 --> 00:18:31.411
Where do we have to bring up our data, our numbers?00:18:31.971 --> 00:18:38.931
And I understand why that conversation happens in that way when you're looking at numbers, but when you're looking at kids in a classroom.00:18:40.411 --> 00:18:42.571
To say, oh, well they're not reading right now.00:18:42.601 --> 00:18:48.841
They are not able to sit at their desk, is not necessarily, it doesn't give you a pathway to changing that.00:18:49.211 --> 00:18:50.681
So what is that child doing?00:18:50.681 --> 00:19:00.731
How can we name that strength to build their personal confidence to change the kind of the air that we're breathing during independent reading and to bring everybody into community around that.00:19:01.001 --> 00:19:06.401
That's been, I think one of the things that's made us the happiest in seeing that is our contribution.00:19:07.406 --> 00:19:08.246
Erin Bailey: Yeah, thank you.00:19:08.576 --> 00:19:25.301
I, and it's maybe surprising for some of those who are listening, but you share this stat in your book and it's also one that literacy coach shared with me when I taught first grade, but there are many classrooms in this country where children are reading.00:19:25.631 --> 00:19:28.541
A book for less than 20 minutes a day.00:19:28.811 --> 00:19:30.671
Imagine that, and then think about if.00:19:31.886 --> 00:19:38.306
There's a child in a situation where they don't have books at home, or they don't have a space in their home where they can read.00:19:38.576 --> 00:19:41.156
That means they're also not reading at home.00:19:41.156 --> 00:19:47.426
So their entire reading is happening for less than 20 minutes a day in the classroom.00:19:47.426 --> 00:19:52.616
I think it is our responsibility as educators to provide.00:19:52.871 --> 00:19:56.651
A space and a time for children to sit down and read.00:19:56.681 --> 00:20:00.911
And I've noticed this, there's a lot of shift to whole group instruction.00:20:01.061 --> 00:20:06.731
And not saying that's a bad thing, of course we need to do whole group instruction and it's very effective.00:20:07.001 --> 00:20:17.471
But you have to think if you're instructing children to do something, when are you giving them the time and the opportunity to actually practice what it is that you are teaching them.00:20:18.566 --> 00:20:19.466
Jen Scoggin: Exactly right.00:20:19.466 --> 00:20:31.556
If they don't get to ever put those skills when we're really into acquisition of skills and introducing kids to skills whole class one, does everyone need what that skill is in that particular moment.00:20:31.556 --> 00:20:41.276
And then two, if they don't apply independently and kind of transition from that place, like, I'm gonna practice this thing, but now I'm gonna put it into practice independently.00:20:41.276 --> 00:20:47.181
Those are two very different, that's a big shift for kids, so you're exactly right.00:20:47.586 --> 00:20:56.331
Erin Bailey: And that's where your concept of trust comes in, because it's easy to sit everyone down and do a whole group lesson and say, okay, I hit this.00:20:56.641 --> 00:20:58.591
Skill 'cause because I taught it.00:20:58.831 --> 00:21:03.001
But then releasing and you know, we talk about a gradual release of responsibility.00:21:03.211 --> 00:21:04.741
The word release is key there.00:21:04.741 --> 00:21:05.131
Right?00:21:05.401 --> 00:21:16.391
Releasing children and trusting them to be able to practice and apply that skill on their own does take trust and time, like you said, you don't snap your fingers and it happens.00:21:16.691 --> 00:21:18.221
You may even start, I would.00:21:18.241 --> 00:21:20.221
Say two minutes a day.00:21:20.251 --> 00:21:21.931
You know, you're thinking you're very young.00:21:22.141 --> 00:21:27.861
Readers, kindergarten, first grade, how long can they sit and read a book independently and start small?00:21:27.861 --> 00:21:29.656
I would say I.00:21:29.676 --> 00:21:30.786
Hannah Schneewind: Absolutely.00:21:30.786 --> 00:21:36.676
So Jen and I also say quite frequently that we like to live in the world of.00:21:36.996 --> 00:21:50.316
And that is to say sometimes there is a dichotomy in education and people feel as if you are either teaching a whole lot of phonics or you are giving them independent reading, right?00:21:50.316 --> 00:21:59.436
You're either teaching whole class or you're doing all small groups, and it's a both, and of course, whole group instruction has a lot of merits.00:22:00.596 --> 00:22:05.336
Students also need that tailored personalized instruction.00:22:05.336 --> 00:22:21.866
Of course, we know that children need direct instruction and phonics and fluency and decoding comprehension, and there's also a lot of research about the role of choice and motivation and engagement, and so.00:22:22.381 --> 00:22:33.961
One of the reasons we do trust teachers is that it's really only the classroom teacher who can figure out in their classroom what, how to do both over the course of a day and a week.00:22:35.096 --> 00:22:44.986
Jen Scoggin: I would add on to that to say all that instruction absolutely has a place, these are all tools that we're calling upon because reading is complicated and kids are complicated, so we needed.00:22:45.666 --> 00:22:53.586
Robust set of tools, but with accountability in mind since that's such a big consideration, education.00:22:54.756 --> 00:23:03.126
We really think that the only way to be held to account to see that, that instruction from whatever, if it's whole class, small group, however you're delivering it.00:23:03.366 --> 00:23:08.996
The only way for us to know that instruction is working is to see it in independent reading.00:23:09.566 --> 00:23:12.176
It is not to test it in discrete ways.00:23:12.491 --> 00:23:14.111
Again, that serves a purpose.00:23:14.261 --> 00:23:31.151
To have an exit ticket or to ask kids to, to write a short paragraph or to do a fluency test, those things have merit, and when we don't see those transferred into independence, when kids are reading something that they feel is purposeful.00:23:31.306 --> 00:23:37.306
You have to question whether or not like that was actually taught to independents or just taught to kind of to jump through a hoop.00:23:37.916 --> 00:23:44.246
And so that we also see independent reading as like the ultimate assessment of how well our instruction is sticking.00:23:44.636 --> 00:23:47.966
And then that's how we can decide, do I need a whole group?00:23:47.966 --> 00:23:48.866
Do I need a small group?00:23:48.866 --> 00:23:49.856
Do I need one-on-one?00:23:49.856 --> 00:23:51.506
Is based on that kind of assessment.00:23:52.801 --> 00:23:55.161
Erin Bailey: Yeah, and I think you hit on a key point there.00:23:55.161 --> 00:23:59.991
It's more than can a child read, it's do they want to read as well.00:23:59.991 --> 00:24:04.131
And that's something that you can measure if you're interested in quantifying it through.00:24:04.161 --> 00:24:05.031
Independent reading.00:24:05.031 --> 00:24:14.481
Is it something, and you talk about this in your book and you share some rubrics for evaluating, is a child motivated to read, how do they describe themself as a reader?00:24:14.481 --> 00:24:17.071
What kind of books do they gravitate towards?00:24:17.071 --> 00:24:19.916
So I think that's the can and want to are.00:24:20.911 --> 00:24:23.971
Two different sides of the same coin.00:24:24.421 --> 00:24:25.621
So I wanna transition.00:24:25.621 --> 00:24:28.711
We talked about class reading in the classroom, independent reading.00:24:28.891 --> 00:24:31.351
A lot of families listen to our show as well.00:24:31.351 --> 00:24:40.301
So I'm wondering what are some practical tips you can give to families who want to cultivate joy and independent reading habits with their children at home?00:24:41.531 --> 00:24:45.281
Jen Scoggin: That's a great question and we are so excited to expand into the parent space.00:24:45.281 --> 00:24:54.701
Like that's such a, those are such, it is such a joyful time when we get to work alongside caregivers who really are like, they just wanna see their kids love to read.00:24:54.701 --> 00:24:58.211
I've never met a caregiver who isn't really invested in that.00:24:58.211 --> 00:25:01.211
So, and you said it beautifully, is that.00:25:01.381 --> 00:25:04.321
We really believe a caregiver's essential role.00:25:05.066 --> 00:25:07.916
Is to create that foundation of joy.00:25:08.396 --> 00:25:15.236
We think as teachers, often we think of the foundational skills as phonics, fan awareness, like all of these skill-based.00:25:16.136 --> 00:25:22.556
We would argue that the real foundation is love and joy of reading and seeing rated as purposeful.00:25:22.556 --> 00:25:29.036
And if you don't have that real foundation, it's hard to build skills upon that because kids don't see the purpose behind it.00:25:29.036 --> 00:25:30.056
So that's where parents are.00:25:30.721 --> 00:25:34.261
Huge support systems for teachers in schools.00:25:34.601 --> 00:25:40.871
And just a few, you know, one of the things we do, we talk to parents about how can you have a cost effective home library?00:25:41.161 --> 00:25:43.081
Where does that library live?00:25:43.111 --> 00:25:47.881
You know, having books on a shelf versus like, where are the places in your home where you can scatter books?00:25:47.881 --> 00:25:53.521
So it's kind of woven into the fabric of your day versus like this formal place.00:25:53.551 --> 00:25:55.651
That, you know, exist only at bedtime.00:25:55.841 --> 00:25:59.951
Even though bedtime's great, there are lots of times and re reasons to read throughout the day.00:26:00.231 --> 00:26:05.381
We talk to parents about different routines for, building kids' vocabularies.00:26:05.591 --> 00:26:09.851
How is the conversation that you have around the dinner table and the back and forth with your kids?00:26:09.851 --> 00:26:17.831
How can you use that to build up the vocabulary and the conversation that helps kids make meaning inside of books?00:26:18.141 --> 00:26:21.921
We talked to parents about following your kids' natural interests.00:26:22.281 --> 00:26:26.901
To guide you towards what kinds of books and what kinds of reading do you have in your house?00:26:26.901 --> 00:26:27.951
Is it an audio book?00:26:27.951 --> 00:26:28.971
Are you nonfiction?00:26:28.971 --> 00:26:29.871
Do you have magazines?00:26:29.871 --> 00:26:33.291
Like how do we diversify what it is that your kids offer?00:26:33.681 --> 00:26:45.261
And a lot of times we spend time with families talking about how do you take an exhale when it comes to the anxiety you might feel about making sure that they're ready.00:26:45.901 --> 00:26:54.661
To learn how to read at school and really maybe de-emphasize you know, let's work on letter sounds and names and we've gotta be sounding things out.00:26:54.661 --> 00:27:04.191
And instead, like, how can we take a more playful approach towards like, rhyme and alliteration and a playful stance that builds all of those beginning skills.00:27:04.191 --> 00:27:08.751
So that's a lot of the practical stuff that we do with camp families and caregivers.00:27:09.896 --> 00:27:13.051
Erin Bailey: I. So much and guilty of all of those.00:27:13.101 --> 00:27:16.891
There isn't a room in my house that doesn't have books in it.00:27:16.891 --> 00:27:24.336
And I really appreciate also what you mentioned about diversifying, what we conceptualize as reading.00:27:24.336 --> 00:27:28.206
And, you know, I'll give some examples of what I do with my own children.00:27:28.206 --> 00:27:30.246
Of course, I have books all over my house.00:27:30.246 --> 00:27:33.291
I you know, they're coming out of every, everywhere at this.00:27:33.591 --> 00:27:36.921
Point, I get them sent to me all the time and I share them with my children.00:27:36.921 --> 00:27:40.351
But recently we also started reading magazines.00:27:40.351 --> 00:27:45.911
So Riff had a partnership with Story Time magazine, which is based in the uk.00:27:46.061 --> 00:27:50.111
And so now I've been able to expose my daughter to magazines.00:27:50.141 --> 00:27:55.121
We also have something called a Yoda Player, which is considered a screen free device.00:27:55.686 --> 00:27:56.616
Storytelling.00:27:56.806 --> 00:28:06.606
So oftentimes before bed, my daughter and I will listen to folk tales and fables, which are meant to be oral storytelling in nature on this Yoda player.00:28:06.876 --> 00:28:08.376
And then of course, eBooks.00:28:08.376 --> 00:28:12.496
I know a lot of families out there are very weary of screen time but.00:28:12.846 --> 00:28:21.576
The research is now showing that if you treat eBooks the same way as a print book, there are equal benefits to reading eBooks as print books.00:28:21.576 --> 00:28:25.596
So RIF has a ebook platform called skyr.00:28:25.596 --> 00:28:27.906
It's a award-winning platform, and I've.00:28:28.126 --> 00:28:46.846
You know, been using that with my own children for years as they get old enough, you know, the recommendation is not screen time before age three, I also have a 1-year-old and
a 2-year-old, so we're not quite there yet, but with my daughter, she very much enjoys sky skybar and we can do the same types of things that you would do with a printed book.00:28:47.086 --> 00:28:48.886
You know, talking about the characters.00:28:49.196 --> 00:28:59.186
Looking at the problem and solution, asking some questions along the way, talking about our favorite parts, all of those things that we do with our printed books, we can do with our eBooks too.00:28:59.186 --> 00:29:07.246
So, just wanted to share some examples for families out there who are looking for ways to diversify their literacy approaches in their house.00:29:07.246 --> 00:29:09.316
And a lot of these can be cost effective too.00:29:09.316 --> 00:29:16.526
You know, you can rent books from the library and have them audio books or onto your Kindle or other devices like that too.00:29:17.791 --> 00:29:18.551
Jen Scoggin: And that's great.00:29:18.551 --> 00:29:19.681
Those are great suggestions.00:29:19.681 --> 00:29:29.731
I mean, Eva, especially if you travel a lot or in the car and you're, you know, you have a middle kid who's always waiting for the older kid to finish some sort of sports practice or.00:29:30.031 --> 00:29:32.371
You know, you're at the dentist or they're waiting.00:29:32.371 --> 00:29:34.051
I mean, an ebook is an easy way.00:29:34.051 --> 00:29:35.881
I mean, I think we grab it, you know, grab our phone.00:29:36.101 --> 00:29:40.631
But handing an ebook or talking over an ebook, it is the same as having a book in your purse.00:29:40.691 --> 00:29:42.311
And also audiobooks.00:29:42.491 --> 00:29:45.131
I think some families are wary of an audiobook.00:29:45.131 --> 00:29:46.691
Does that count as real reading?00:29:46.691 --> 00:29:48.461
My child likes to listen.00:29:48.831 --> 00:29:52.041
And we know audio books like the work that our Brains are doing.00:29:52.071 --> 00:29:54.021
No, you're not doing the decoding work.00:29:54.241 --> 00:30:00.931
But your brain, in terms of the comprehension, the research is showing us you're doing all that same work to make meaning from that text.00:30:01.021 --> 00:30:04.641
And so that's another great way for kids to access books.00:30:04.641 --> 00:30:08.871
And you're right, like, you know, you can do audio books like through Prime, but you can also.00:30:09.296 --> 00:30:15.906
The app, Libby, or all of our public libraries they have great free ways to do that.00:30:15.906 --> 00:30:17.206
And that's reading too.00:30:18.046 --> 00:30:18.496
Erin Bailey: Yeah.00:30:18.556 --> 00:30:19.036
Absolutely.00:30:19.036 --> 00:30:23.716
And I love those examples at the dentist when you're waiting at sports practice for your other kid.00:30:24.016 --> 00:30:33.826
And it's true I've spoken with other parents about this and even on the podcast spoken about this, it is difficult for children to wait sometimes.00:30:34.006 --> 00:30:37.036
And I think in our society, the tendency is to.00:30:37.451 --> 00:30:41.111
Open up our phone and pull up YouTube, but why not a book?00:30:41.291 --> 00:30:44.951
For those parents who are transitioning, just challenge yourself.00:30:44.951 --> 00:30:50.711
Maybe swap out one ebook or audio book for a YouTube video per day.00:30:50.711 --> 00:30:54.131
I think you'll be amazed with the benefits that you will see.00:30:54.791 --> 00:31:01.991
Jen Scoggin: And I would also are like, you know, if you are a parent of a young child and you can't take the the music, do you know what I mean?00:31:01.991 --> 00:31:02.441
Like the.00:31:02.876 --> 00:31:13.916
Jump, jump Johnny Giraffe or the wheels on the, like, if you've just had it with that music, those audio books at the library, you pop that in, you know, you can in the car ride.00:31:13.916 --> 00:31:16.496
I mean, that saved my sanity.00:31:16.736 --> 00:31:23.636
But also I think what you're talking about though, the bigger concept is creating a habit of reading.00:31:23.966 --> 00:31:25.496
Reading is a habit.00:31:25.991 --> 00:31:45.401
It is a habit that we have to practice to turn to a book in those moments of downtime when we're eating a meal, when we're alone before bed, and so you can't
start early enough with kind of modeling those habits and then practicing those habits together so that they can compete with all the distractions that we have.00:31:46.651 --> 00:31:47.251
Erin Bailey: Absolutely.00:31:48.006 --> 00:31:48.336
Hannah Schneewind: Yeah.00:31:48.766 --> 00:31:51.346
I also would just like to add.00:31:52.021 --> 00:32:00.901
When I work with parents, I always talk to them about you reach your child in the language that you feel the most comfortable in.00:32:01.441 --> 00:32:05.641
You know, sometimes parents are thinking, well, you know, I want my child to learn English.00:32:05.641 --> 00:32:07.351
Do I need to be reading them in English?00:32:07.351 --> 00:32:07.681
No.00:32:07.681 --> 00:32:13.501
Learning two languages, growing up with two languages we know is so phenomenal for our brains.00:32:13.741 --> 00:32:20.881
That's such an asset to have, and so please read to your child in whatever language is most comfortable.00:32:21.211 --> 00:32:26.401
For you, that's so important for children who are grown up bilingual, multilingual.00:32:27.731 --> 00:32:38.031
Erin Bailey: That's an amazing point, Hannah, that I try to emphasize all the time as well, and what I want families to realize is a lot of the skills that your child is learning.00:32:38.401 --> 00:32:40.591
They transfer from language to language.00:32:40.591 --> 00:32:50.821
So things like book handling skills, concepts about print, even the flow, you know, story structures, narrative, story structures, beginning, middle, end, problem, solution, character setting.00:32:51.181 --> 00:32:57.451
Those all transfer from one language to the next mo, you know, most almost all of the time.00:32:57.451 --> 00:33:02.641
So it's great for building those early literacy skills that they will need when they get to school.00:33:03.451 --> 00:33:12.511
So going back to the book, you have four components of independent reading, time, choice talk, and teacher support.00:33:12.931 --> 00:33:25.211
Can you walk us through why each of these elements matter, and especially how Choice, 'cause that's critical to Rifs mission as well works alongside the others to create such a meaningful and sustainable independent reading experience.00:33:26.491 --> 00:33:26.771
Hannah Schneewind: Sure.00:33:27.101 --> 00:33:29.261
So I mentioned a few of these before.00:33:29.876 --> 00:33:41.546
But each one of these components, it's important to know, is backed up by a lot of academic research as well as being backed up by what we call the wisdom of practice, right?00:33:41.546 --> 00:33:43.346
Teachers who are in the classroom.00:33:43.856 --> 00:33:49.736
So students do need uninterrupted blocks of time to read.00:33:50.036 --> 00:33:58.766
We know that there is a. A correlation between how much students read, how long they read, and how good they get at reading.00:33:58.766 --> 00:34:03.596
And so we need to be able to provide that time in school.00:34:03.866 --> 00:34:09.716
It can't be something that the teacher is able to kind of move in if she has five extra minutes.00:34:09.716 --> 00:34:12.776
It can't be something that is only done on Friday.00:34:13.016 --> 00:34:15.446
It really needs to be a regular part of.00:34:15.961 --> 00:34:16.951
Schedule.00:34:17.491 --> 00:34:18.781
So choice.00:34:19.201 --> 00:34:26.011
We know, again, the research behind the connection between choice and engagement and motivation is huge.00:34:26.011 --> 00:34:30.901
One of the questions we often get from teachers is how do we motivate our students?00:34:30.901 --> 00:34:33.611
How do we engage our students are so much happening in the world and.00:34:33.996 --> 00:34:35.166
So many distractions.00:34:35.556 --> 00:34:40.236
Well, giving students choice is really one way to do that.00:34:40.786 --> 00:34:45.646
Talk, as I mentioned, it's odd to me if classrooms are quiet.00:34:45.646 --> 00:34:47.896
So think about yourself as an adult.00:34:48.106 --> 00:34:50.086
When you see a movie, what do you want to do?00:34:50.116 --> 00:34:53.476
You want to turn to the person next to you and say, can you believe that just happened?00:34:53.566 --> 00:34:55.456
Or, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen next?00:34:55.456 --> 00:34:55.726
Right?00:34:55.786 --> 00:34:58.276
And so kids are the same.00:34:58.276 --> 00:34:58.876
I love it.00:34:58.876 --> 00:35:00.286
If in the middle of reading I'll see.00:35:00.771 --> 00:35:04.761
You know, a first grader scoot over to her friend and say, look at this really gross part.00:35:04.761 --> 00:35:06.471
You have to see this disgusting thing.00:35:06.981 --> 00:35:15.141
You know, or I have kids who will be reading something and then will jump up and say, oh my gosh, you won't believe what just happened.00:35:15.411 --> 00:35:22.191
You know, like kids want to talk and share, and so they need time to talk to their peers.00:35:22.191 --> 00:35:25.676
They also need time to talk to you because you, as this.00:35:26.056 --> 00:35:30.046
The teacher can be a model partner for them.00:35:30.046 --> 00:35:34.126
You know, how to have really sophisticated conversations.00:35:34.546 --> 00:35:37.936
And then as we mentioned, there is that teacher support.00:35:38.026 --> 00:35:47.086
I can't say it enough times that one of the biggest misunderstandings of independent reading is that it is just kids.00:35:47.261 --> 00:35:48.011
Reading.00:35:48.441 --> 00:36:01.461
And Aaron, you referred to this, there was this thing called drop everything and Read, and the idea behind it was that everyone in the school building would be reading, but we know that is not actually impactful.00:36:01.936 --> 00:36:19.126
You have to have the teacher there being really involved at all levels from how to choose books to what strategies are you using as
you're reading, as you're actually reading and decoding to how to read fluently to how are you, what do you do at the end of a book?00:36:19.126 --> 00:36:22.276
So there's teacher support at all levels.00:36:23.165 --> 00:36:28.555
Erin Bailey: I think the key there is the teacher is teaching during independent reading time.00:36:28.555 --> 00:36:35.965
And if you've ever seen a classroom where independent reading is done very well, there's often a teacher who observes first.00:36:35.965 --> 00:36:43.055
And I think you talk about this as kid watching in your book and making notes maybe on a clipboard of what each.00:36:43.285 --> 00:36:45.595
A student needs to work on during their reading.00:36:45.595 --> 00:36:52.205
That way the teacher can pull and have a conference with the reader while the other kids are reading00:36:53.264 --> 00:36:53.654
Jen Scoggin: Absolutely.00:36:53.654 --> 00:37:04.754
And I think that's a way to be really intentional about it and to diagnose what we were talking about earlier, to say, oh, is this, you know, someone's doing this well, but this isn't, you know, they might need support here.00:37:04.934 --> 00:37:07.994
Is that for this one student or there three students?00:37:08.024 --> 00:37:11.444
Do I need a small group or is it really the whole class like.00:37:11.934 --> 00:37:25.074
Really that independent reading time is where you start to see those patterns emerge, and that's how you figure out how to build your instruction during that literacy block is based on what needs are emerging and how frequent are those needs.00:37:25.074 --> 00:37:26.274
What are the patterns?00:37:27.439 --> 00:37:29.749
Erin Bailey: Seeing patterns almost like a detective.00:37:29.749 --> 00:37:35.609
That's what I loved about being a reading specialist, is it was a little bit like playing detective.00:37:35.609 --> 00:37:40.954
If you can figure out what it is that a child needs to work on, then you have all of.00:37:41.249 --> 00:37:49.859
These research based strategies that you can use to meet the child at the individual skill or need that they are working on.00:37:50.824 --> 00:37:51.574
Jen Scoggin: A hundred percent.00:37:51.574 --> 00:37:54.904
We always say that teaching is equal parts teaching and research.00:37:55.264 --> 00:38:05.809
You need to be doing the teaching, the work of teaching and exposing and supporting and whatnot, but then also waiting and watching and researching students to let you know what's next.00:38:05.809 --> 00:38:08.749
So it's like a very reciprocal process, like a detective.00:38:08.749 --> 00:38:09.349
I like that.00:38:09.439 --> 00:38:10.129
I like that analogy.00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:10.849
Yeah.00:38:12.074 --> 00:38:17.174
Erin Bailey: So I wanna transition just a little bit to talk about the connection between reading and writing.00:38:17.474 --> 00:38:29.074
You both recently did a webinar for us, which I'll also link in the show notes about using mentor texts, which are author, written texts to mentor children in their writing.00:38:29.384 --> 00:38:32.384
How do you see reading and writing as connected and from your.00:38:32.544 --> 00:38:33.054
Experience.00:38:33.054 --> 00:38:36.954
How does being a strong reader help someone become a strong writer?00:38:37.854 --> 00:38:41.364
Jen Scoggin: But that's a great question because we do call ourselves trusting readers.00:38:41.364 --> 00:38:42.774
We talk a lot about reading.00:38:42.954 --> 00:38:44.484
We also very much love writing.00:38:44.544 --> 00:38:45.264
We love talking.00:38:45.264 --> 00:38:48.844
I think writing with kids sometimes is just spectacular.00:38:48.844 --> 00:38:51.514
It's very fun to write with and alongside kids.00:38:51.904 --> 00:38:58.564
My mentor, who I mentioned earlier, Pam Allen once said that reading is like breathing in and writing is like breathing out.00:38:58.934 --> 00:39:01.154
That they're very much related to each other.00:39:01.244 --> 00:39:11.924
And that when we have kids who are readers, they're getting exposed to how language works, like on the sentence level, like how does the sentence sound, what is it?00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:13.669
You know, how do you end a sentence?00:39:13.669 --> 00:39:15.049
What does a story sound like?00:39:15.289 --> 00:39:16.849
How do people present information?00:39:16.849 --> 00:39:17.809
Why might they do that?00:39:17.809 --> 00:39:22.699
Kids are getting exposed to all these things that readers do that give them a sense of possibility.00:39:23.189 --> 00:39:26.189
I wanna tell you two quick stories, even though I know I talk too much.00:39:26.339 --> 00:39:27.269
There's two stories.00:39:27.389 --> 00:39:30.099
So one is from the pre-K world.00:39:30.339 --> 00:39:34.379
So we think of pre-K and the connection between reading and writing.00:39:34.379 --> 00:39:44.009
So for several weeks in this pre-K room, we had been reading aloud wordless books and looking at these heavily illustrated books and kind of telling that.00:39:44.294 --> 00:39:44.864
Story.00:39:44.864 --> 00:39:51.554
So kids, when they were reading those wordless books, were getting the practice of telling the story themselves.00:39:51.554 --> 00:39:54.434
So they got that feeling of what is it like to tell a story?00:39:54.434 --> 00:39:56.324
What does a story sound like?00:39:56.684 --> 00:40:02.894
'cause if kids can't really say it or tell it, it is much harder for them to commit that to paper to write it.00:40:02.894 --> 00:40:05.584
So that oral language piece is really important.00:40:05.764 --> 00:40:07.684
So we had read, and read all these words.00:40:07.684 --> 00:40:09.149
It blew their minds that books.00:40:09.689 --> 00:40:11.489
Don't have to have words all the time.00:40:11.579 --> 00:40:13.349
As little pre his little four year olds.00:40:13.409 --> 00:40:21.839
And this little peanut Graham came in on a Monday and was like, he held it up like a, he was like, I wrote a book.00:40:22.169 --> 00:40:24.029
And he was like, I'm an author.00:40:24.209 --> 00:40:28.079
And he had just, he had, we had read so many, we had told so many.00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:33.569
And yet he went home and he did an art project with his grandmother and he wanted to write that.00:40:33.749 --> 00:40:37.289
And he told this story and the idea that.00:40:37.714 --> 00:40:39.874
He saw that this is how people share.00:40:40.654 --> 00:40:46.504
Stories of their experiences, and then he was inspired to say, I can do that too.00:40:46.744 --> 00:40:48.184
It was possibility.00:40:48.274 --> 00:40:52.654
And then from there, the kids, you know, everyone and everyone's like, well, Graham can do it.00:40:52.654 --> 00:40:53.224
I can do it.00:40:53.284 --> 00:40:56.344
And so everybody is writing these wordless books.00:40:56.344 --> 00:41:03.124
And then naturally someone's like, well, I'm gonna try adding words to mind because all these books that you're sharing with us.00:41:03.269 --> 00:41:04.529
Do have words.00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:09.569
And so it just became this process where they were really inspired about what's possible.00:41:10.049 --> 00:41:15.749
And then when we have like fifth graders this is a story of my son who is a very reluctant writer.00:41:17.059 --> 00:41:18.529
He's very invested in.00:41:18.529 --> 00:41:20.719
The question is a hotdog a sandwich?00:41:20.779 --> 00:41:22.879
This is a big question in fifth grade, right?00:41:23.269 --> 00:41:31.729
And so there's a lot of debate and argument and he had recently completed a unit of study with his teachers at school around argument.00:41:31.849 --> 00:41:34.804
And they had read a lot of argumentative essays.00:41:34.804 --> 00:41:36.829
They had read a lot of opinion pieces.00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:44.299
And he realized through reading them that when something is important enough to you, you can share that.00:41:44.499 --> 00:41:52.389
In writing, it adds a level of, I don't know, like oomph to that like thought that you've been having for such a long time.00:41:52.449 --> 00:42:02.649
I know it's a hot dog sandwich debate, but he on a weekend and wrote this whole essay and brought it to school and then there was just a debate.00:42:02.649 --> 00:42:10.179
It was off and running and his teacher didn't have to do because she had done all the work with them as readers.00:42:10.819 --> 00:42:14.629
The work as writers was like that much easier.00:42:14.959 --> 00:42:23.389
Maybe she wanted them writing about something more robust than the sandwich, but like, I don't think ultimately that's what mattered to them.00:42:23.389 --> 00:42:28.519
So that's how we see in real time all of that work as readers.00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:33.049
Really kind of inspiring writers to see possibility.00:42:34.789 --> 00:42:35.179
Erin Bailey: Absolutely.00:42:35.209 --> 00:42:37.069
I love that story so much.00:42:37.069 --> 00:42:40.639
A hot dog sandwich, and I think it speaks to choice too, right?00:42:40.909 --> 00:42:41.209
Maybe.00:42:42.089 --> 00:42:45.899
The teacher had wanted them to write something more robust.00:42:45.899 --> 00:42:50.639
But the point is, were they able to meet the standards of argumentative, right.00:42:50.689 --> 00:42:52.009
Argumentative writing.00:42:52.219 --> 00:42:56.879
And if it was through a hotdog sandwich argument, then they met the standards.00:42:56.879 --> 00:42:57.119
Right.00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:04.949
It, is it something that choice gave your son an in, into the writer that he was going to become?00:43:06.184 --> 00:43:09.364
Jen Scoggin: I mean, it wasn't, you know, how do we conserve water?00:43:09.424 --> 00:43:12.099
But it was, you know, it, you're exactly right.00:43:12.099 --> 00:43:13.659
He was excited about it.00:43:13.899 --> 00:43:15.879
It got other kids excited.00:43:16.129 --> 00:43:17.419
And it started with reading.00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:18.049
So,00:43:18.829 --> 00:43:22.869
Erin Bailey: And I'll, I just wanna repeat that quote that you said too, because I loved it so much.00:43:22.869 --> 00:43:25.389
You said it was from your mentor, Pam Allen.00:43:25.689 --> 00:43:32.889
Reading is like breathing in and writing is like breathing out that it resonates with me so much.00:43:32.949 --> 00:43:37.869
You know, especially when I was working on my doctorate and writing my dissertation.00:43:38.774 --> 00:43:40.754
I was always writing in the evenings.00:43:40.754 --> 00:43:51.254
That's the only time I had to write was after I put my daughter to bed, and there were some nights where I felt so exhausted that I thought, I'm only going to read tonight.00:43:51.909 --> 00:43:54.249
I just need something more restorative.00:43:54.249 --> 00:44:05.109
I'm only going to read, but somehow miraculously, kind of like your son, I would start reading and something would spark for me and suddenly I would be writing and writing.00:44:05.109 --> 00:44:08.199
So it is a breathing in and breathing out process.00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:10.149
They are always interconnected.00:44:11.279 --> 00:44:12.569
Jen Scoggin: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.00:44:12.569 --> 00:44:19.579
And I think, you know, it is, like you were saying earlier about for families creating a habit of reading.00:44:19.889 --> 00:44:21.439
And I think the same stands for right.00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:31.899
Ralph Fletcher, who is also another brilliant teacher of teachers said that not all readers are writers, but all writers are readers.00:44:32.049 --> 00:44:39.419
And so if we can also think about what are the ways that writing can feel purposeful for our children?00:44:39.469 --> 00:44:42.889
What are ways that get them excited so that they have a habit of writing?00:44:42.919 --> 00:44:49.039
Like you're saying, you were almost processing the information you were taking in as a doctoral candidate.00:44:50.174 --> 00:44:55.004
And trying to put it together and understand it through your writing, right?00:44:55.004 --> 00:45:00.794
Like it, it was in, we are also trying to kind of wrap your head around some of the big ideas.00:45:01.044 --> 00:45:06.804
And that's a habit, that's a really lovely habit to create for students, whether it's journaling or writing a dissertation.00:45:06.804 --> 00:45:08.814
There's a lot of space in between there too.00:45:09.874 --> 00:45:11.704
Erin Bailey: So, absolutely.00:45:11.754 --> 00:45:13.764
We will transition here.00:45:13.764 --> 00:45:19.104
Speaking of reading to inspire you, as you know, this podcast is called Reading Inspires.00:45:19.104 --> 00:45:21.054
So I always end by asking our guests what does.00:45:21.864 --> 00:45:23.664
Reading Inspire for you and Hannah.00:45:23.664 --> 00:45:24.294
We'll start with you.00:45:26.174 --> 00:45:26.774
Hannah Schneewind: Sure.00:45:26.774 --> 00:45:39.944
Well, I am very lucky because I grew up in a family of readers and when I think about reading, what I really think about is how I am always inspired by connection and characters.00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:44.849
So when I am reading, I am there with the character.00:45:44.849 --> 00:45:48.209
You know, we always say to children, put yourself in the character shoes.00:45:48.539 --> 00:45:49.949
But I did that before.00:45:49.949 --> 00:45:52.889
I knew that was kind of a thing we were supposed to do.00:45:53.279 --> 00:45:57.329
So I will cry when something bad happens to the character.00:45:57.659 --> 00:46:00.509
I will cheer when something good happens.00:46:00.509 --> 00:46:03.539
I will yell at the character when they make a bad decision.00:46:03.849 --> 00:46:08.949
So for me it is really all about that connection to characters.00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:12.229
And I always respond really emotionally to books.00:46:12.229 --> 00:46:17.689
So when I taught first grade, I never could read the end of Charlotte's web aloud.00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:22.969
There's something about reading aloud that brings the emotions to the surface.00:46:23.569 --> 00:46:28.399
And I remember like by six year olds looking at me and saying, Neeland, are you crying?00:46:28.399 --> 00:46:28.729
I'd be like.00:46:29.034 --> 00:46:30.264
Nope, I'm not crying.00:46:30.264 --> 00:46:31.974
I'm, we can read this, it's fine.00:46:32.914 --> 00:46:37.894
But again, it's that, you know, that connection to characters, that's what I always hold on to.00:46:40.464 --> 00:46:40.744
Erin Bailey: Absolutely.00:46:42.454 --> 00:46:47.284
Jen Scoggin: And I would say like to, it's about connection for me too, I think.00:46:47.564 --> 00:46:47.924
Yes.00:46:47.924 --> 00:46:55.214
I also cry every time I read the, I don't know if we have ever talked about that, Hannah, but I also cry every time I read that and will friend Gordon McDonald00:46:55.454 --> 00:46:55.724
Hannah Schneewind: Oh,00:46:55.964 --> 00:46:56.234
Jen Scoggin: by me.00:46:56.654 --> 00:46:58.544
I can't read it out loud.00:46:58.624 --> 00:47:00.124
But for me it's always about Ben.00:47:00.814 --> 00:47:03.394
Reading is about connecting to people in my life.00:47:03.854 --> 00:47:09.674
So if someone is recovering from an illness, I'll send them a book.00:47:09.674 --> 00:47:12.284
My friends and I are always sharing books.00:47:12.284 --> 00:47:19.284
I'm always interested in what other people are reading, and I think that is created conversation and connection amongst friends.00:47:20.164 --> 00:47:20.194
I.00:47:21.349 --> 00:47:24.769
Like I mentioned, I, my kids are now in seventh grade and 10th grade.00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.139
I think reading maintains a connection between us.00:47:27.139 --> 00:47:31.399
I just recently stopped reading out loud to my daughter at night and she's a 10th grader.00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:37.039
That is a place of connection for us, and now it's about sharing books and reading them side by side.00:47:37.129 --> 00:47:42.229
And so for me, reading is always about connecting with the people who are most important in my life.00:47:42.839 --> 00:47:44.489
Erin Bailey: I that I'm sure that was.00:47:44.904 --> 00:47:50.964
Very bittersweet as someone who has a five-year-old daughter, I, you know, that'll be me someday.00:47:50.964 --> 00:47:56.579
And I'm sure that will be a bittersweet moment, but connection reading inspires connection.00:47:56.579 --> 00:48:08.249
I think I heard that throughout our conversation today, and maybe the word independent reading is a bit of a misnomer because it really is about connection because how do you build trust?00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:12.869
It's through connection teachers connections with their students.00:48:12.949 --> 00:48:16.459
Thank you so much Hannah and Jen for sharing with us today.00:48:16.459 --> 00:48:20.659
And thank you everyone for listening to Reading Inspires by Reading is Fundamental.00:48:20.959 --> 00:48:26.449
I hope today's conversation sparked new ideas, meaningful connections, and a renewed love of reading.00:48:26.629 --> 00:48:35.659
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